Is there any really appropriate age to audition for a symphony? I'm still working on my BM at conservatory so I feel like maybe I'd get laughed out with my small resume or not taken seriously or something.

So, is there really any appropriate time to audition?

I think if you are in your last year or two of undergrad, you should start taking auditions. Depending on the orchestra, it is possible (maybe even probable) that they will reject your resume, but don't give up. If you are studying at a conservatory and if your teacher feels you are ready, all it usually takes is a phone call from your teacher recommending you. A lot of people do this.

I won the first audition I took -I was a senior in college. My resume was initially rejected (I wasn't even given a tape option). My teacher called and the next thing I knew, I had an audition time.

My advice, ask your teacher if they feel you are ready to begin taking auditions and follow their advice!

Age really doesn't have anything to do with it (as far as the youth goes....aged, I'm not so sure). David McGill was hired a principal in Omaha as a senior in High School...but then he went on to Curtis.I believe Norbert N (can't remember how to spell his last name) was hired by Lyric Opera at a young age too - before finishing undergrad. So, if you feel that you are ready to take them (and get a 2nd or 3rd opinion) - go for it.

I think there are lots of examples of people in college winning jobs but it is far from the norm. I would agree to get other opinions before heading out. It can be very discouraging not to advance. Better to start when you are really ready to win. Otherwise you waste not only your time but other peoples time also. Another option is to apply to ones that require a tape. If you pass the tape round, that is a positive step!!

On the other end of the age spectrum, I have seen jobs posted with an upper age of 35 in Europe and Japan. I haven't seen this in the US but wonder if it is ever a consideration for audition committees? I think from a legal point of view, age descrimination could be filed if a job was posted with such a limit in the US.

I think it's best to start auditioning as soon as you can. Successful auditioning is a skill that requires practice (albeit expensive practice).

I know of teachers that encourage auditioning as soon as the students enter their studio as freshman. They have had a number of students who have won auditions while still in school or immediately after graduating. I would think that their success is due (in part, at least) to getting used to auditioning.

Surely U.S. orchestras could not exclude candidates based on age, but I do wonder at what point they might reject a candidate based on age. Not explicitly, but, say, if they have two final candidates, one in his/her 20s, another in his/her 40s. On one hand, you might choose experience, on the other you might assume the older player is more set-in-his ways, less flexible, and won't stay in the group as long (though that's always a dubious game, as the young hotshot might leave soon for another job, too).

I don't often read about over about age 40 winning auditions, but I'd be happy to know if I'm wrong about that (I'm talking about open auditions; hiring established players away from other groups without putting them through the whole process is another matter).

Part of the reason you don't hear many stories of people over 40 winning a job in an "open" audition is simply that the vast majority of people over 40 don't audition. By vast I mean 95 percent.

As far as a 20 something versus a 40 something...it depends on the committee. Because judgment of someone's playing is so subjective if the committee thought they were equal players (without talking about the potential of one and "set in the ways" of the other) choosing the 20 something would probably be the likely course of most orchestras. To change that would require the 40 something to really be the right key that unlocks the committee.

Once you hit 40 and/or have been in a good job for a while, the idea of preparing for an audition can seem too monumental to want to tackle...there are more things in life than playing music.

In the US it is illegal to discriminate by age. I understand that some conductors are worried about the moldability of older players, but if a musician is a good musician (not technician) that should not be an issue.

I have been told that in Germany it is extremely rare to be accepted to audition for an orchestra once you are over 32 (or 35...can't remember as I am old). I am certain other places may have age caps too.

The one exception on age caps in the US - the military bands do not accept over 32, just as you can't enter the military in any capacity once you have passed your 33rd birthday.

Regarding what the orchestra would prefer - it depends... I'm working in an orchestra with a very young crowd (all under 35) on all first desk strings - so if there is an audition with an excellent experienced 50-year-old for a post there, I would likely vote for that one, because we need more good, experienced people in our orchestra. In other (most?) orchestras, it would be the other way round... enough experience, they want young energy.

Of course, in Germany and everywhere else, there is a difference depending on what you did up until you turned 35. If you spent ten years as principal in a decent orchestra from 25-35, you would probably not have any problem in getting invited to an audition for a job in an even better orchestra. But if you finished studying music at 25 and drove a cab ever since - then your chances are quite slim...

I have friends in European orchestras and as I understand it is virtually impossible to get invited to an audition over age 35 (even in Germany ). It has more to do with salary/pension issues from what I've been told. I have a friend who has been principal of a B orchestra over there for 15 years and can't get invited to an A orchestra audition even with friends in the orchestra (could be an gender/American issue as well). I find your comments interesting, Eurobassoon, though.

Small German orchestras generally have a limit at 35. Pension issues, correct. The "rich" orchestras can afford paying pension to someone not working there for 30 years, making orchestras like the Radio orchestras or Berlin Phil be more liberal. Principal clarinet Karl Heinz Steffens of Berlin Phil was way over 40 when he got his job there, I believe. But of course, he had been principal with the Bayrische Rundfunk until then...