quote:

Originally posted by Sam Bergman:
I know they're wrong, you know they're wrong, but it's abundantly clear that some people prefer to live in a world in which they've been cheated out of a job, rather than in one in which they just weren't good enough when all the chips were on the line.

Like it or not, Committees DO turn away qualified candidates for multiple reasons. The way you are wording this is basically " nobody was good enough" and that's usually not the case. Often, it is the process itself, sometimes even the committee itself. Especially in the first round, the finals are a bit different and have a lot more variables.

Yes, I have been on committees where nobody was hired. It was fair and there was no conspiracy. At the same time, I can assure you that there were people immensely qualified to play in the band that went home, some I knew personally and there's absolutely no doubt.

Ever see someone re-audition for their own job? I have seen many, and often they dont get it. One "big five" player comes to mind, he was well-liked, a great player etc. He left the gig for a certain reason, and two years later he decided he wanted to come back. He didnt get adavanced Was he qualified? Logic would say that he was incredibly qualified since it was HIS JOB.

That speaks VOLUMES about the current system. I bet it can happen to 99% of orchestra players, that they couldnt win their jobs back. Even worse would be if they hired nobody, think about it: you are in the band, you have to re-audition, and you find out you are not given the job. Therefore, you are not qualified to do a job that was YOUR job to begin with.

quote:

Originally posted by Cygnus:
Like it or not, Committees DO turn away qualified candidates for multiple reasons.

You say that a lot, Cygnus, but you never really provide any evidence to support it beyond anecdotal accounts. And the real debate here may be over the use of the term "qualified." What is a qualified candidate? To me, it's someone who can win the audition. Might that same person have lost several other auditions first? Sure. I lost in Milwaukee and Indianapolis before winning in Minnesota. So does that mean that I was qualified for the jobs in Milwaukee and Indy? No. I got beat, fair and square, I learned from my mistakes, I moved on, and eventually, I put it all together enough to win a big one.

As for the story of a big five player unable to win his own job back, it doesn't surprise me. Once you have a comfortable job, it's awfully easy to forget how hard you had to work to get it, and to assume that because you've "been there," you have an automatic advantage. (I've seen it in my own orchestra when wildly talented section players attempt to move up to a titled chair, only to be beaten out by a freelancer who wanted it more and was not going to be denied.) The reality is that the students coming out of the top music schools get better every year, and there are any number of hungry musicians willing to do everything in their power to outwork you. That's what makes the blind audition process we use a good thing - we're not allowed to assume that the people we think are the best are actually the best. All we can go by is what we hear.

quote:

You say that a lot, Cygnus, but you never really provide any evidence to support it beyond anecdotal accounts.

Evidence?? This aint no steenkin crime scene Sam There is plenty of "evidence" out there.

I didnt say committees dont hire because of some vast right-wing conspiracy, so don't get me wrong. I am merely pointing out not only inherent flaws in the system, but also debating the premise of "there was nobody qualified". Maybe it's semantics of the word "qualified", because clearly there are people who are "qualified" beyond belief to play in the band, yet don't get a gig.

quote:

As for the story of a big five player unable to win his own job back, it doesn't surprise me. Once you have a comfortable job, it's awfully easy to forget how hard you had to work to get it, and to assume that because you've "been there," you have an automatic advantage.

You'll just have to trust me that this was not the case.

quote:

The reality is that the students coming out of the top music schools get better every year,

Yet jobs go unfilled constantly. What more can I say?? Imagine what someone outside of the orchestra biz would say if they read this statement: players keep getting better, yet nobody is qualified?? Clearly something is incredibly wrong with the audition process.

Look at basketball: there are always 5 guys on the court. If it was some kind of a blindfolded half-court shot that determined who played, then maybe nobody would be qualified there too. It's not, they pick players in a reasonable manner.

One last thing since I am on a roll/rant:

The concept of placing somebody in the finals without going through the first round(s) is, by far, the biggest problem I can see with the audition process. It's insanity. From my experience, when you take that screen down, ears suddenly cease working and emotions take over. The whole concept is mindblowing that it happens, the opportunity for nepotism and cronyism is incredible, especially since most people might be unaware that they are doing it.

Outta curiousity Sam: when you heard a local person play behind a screen (a sub for example), did you know who it was?? I did almost EVERY time. Seriously. So did most people on the various committees I was on. That also speaks volumes about the audition process.

quote:

Originally posted by Cygnus:
Outta curiousity Sam: when you heard a local person play behind a screen (a sub for example), did you know who it was??

I frequently thought I did. I was right maybe 50% of the time. I've learned not to trust my assumptions regarding who might or might not be behind the screen.

You might be interested in Jim Markey's blog about his experience auditionning at Cleveland. He echoes many comments you have made. His major advice is:
"With regards to auditions, there is one concept which I emphasize with my students: when all is said and done leading up to an audition and it is time to play for the committee, the last thing you can afford to concern yourself with is what others think of your playing. You must play the best way you know how; it is the only way to present yourself in the best possible light."
http://www.markeybone.blogspot.com/

I didn't really mean to consider what a jury is listening for when you're AT the audition...I merely meant it as a way to decide where/which auditions to take. Let's say an orchestra likes really loud, aggressive playing, and maybe I don't play that way....well, I probably won't take the audition. Just an example.

Again, if you've got lots of time and/or money, go ahead and take it anyway....but some of us have jobs and don't have the time nor the money to waste on auditions if we know we won't win the job for whatever reason.

quote:

Let's say an orchestra likes really loud, aggressive playing, and maybe I don't play that way....well, I probably won't take the audition. Just an example.

Sorry don't mean to be rude but isn't that obvious? You can probably figure it out just by hearing the orchestra play...

I'm still figuring out the whole audition thing and no they probably aren't the best or fairest way to pick people but that's life isn't it? I personally only go for jobs I really really want - otherwise it's a waste of time and money for all concerned. It's no different to any job interview - yes you have to be good enough but also your face must fit - it is the whole package they are looking for - not just your bowing technique. I quite like the system in the UK where they choose several people for a trial with the orchestra before they choose - then they see how they play in an ensemble and if they are easy to get along with etc although it does drag the process out considerably. If we don't get the job really it is ourselves who are to blame. The audition process probably won't change! Accept it and move on!

What is very obvious from reading all of this is that auditions are difficult for everybody! As for the big 5 guy that didn't win his job back....AND many of the other comments.....think about this-

You are going to a really great restaurant with 9 of your friends, but all 9 of you must have the same entre? What would it be?

1 year later, or 5 or 10 (whatever) the same 9 of you go to the same really great restaurant and again you must all have the same entre - would it be the same one you all agreed on last time?

OR another option -

One month after the first outing you go to the same restaurant with 9 people, but only 7 of the nine taht went last time can attend so you found 2 new people to join in. Again you all must have the same entre (which last time was outstanding!) would you have the same entre you did a month ago?

You could substitute this idea with picking a musician (which is Exactly what happens in auditions), or agreeing on anything. People value different things after a month, a year or whatever amount of time. Even if the committee is mostly the same - the addition of 2 new people can add a completely new dimention of what is discussed and agreed upon when it comes to choosing a "winner".

So in reality - at an audition your product has to be great, but without the confidence (sales pitch) you'll never get anywhere. Here is a story.... a musician was in grave need of money during the depression and went to a pawn shop with his instrument to exchange it for cash hoping/knowing that he would come back with the money to get it. The owner of the shop wanted to give him a very small amount and the musician was outraged! "It is worth at least 5 times that!" The owner, thinking he was smart, said "prove it". So the musician picked up his instrument and played - I mean played as if his life depended on it(his kids needed to eat - this was the depression!) Well the owner of the shop gave him 5 times what he offered. Now that kind of playing would serve well at an audition. (and was a true story) If you can guess the person I'll send a smilely face!!

One last comment - we all think we are playing in tune with good rhythm.....well....we aren't.....I sat through an entire audition (over 100 people) and only one person played a whole note for 4 complete beats. No matter how much experience you may or may not have, some of the smallest details can be overlooked. Playing a "perfect" audition is impossible - as a "perfect" audition does mean different things to each of the committee members. So instead, strive for a good musicial experience.

Again - just my thoughts - take em or leave em.