Not even a wannabe conductor, I'd say. An actual conductor would understand how the system works and why it's important for orchestras to exist - e.g., so he can have a job - and also some idea of how to help the current system work better.

I don't think anybody goes into music for the money. We know going in that the odds are against our succeeding, and if we do succeed it will usually mean not making much money. But we hold ourselves to a very high standard - we have to, if we're going to win & keep jobs - and are held to a very high standard by others. We (and by "we" I mean "I") feel that if we, having freely chosen this field, hold ourselves to such a high standard, then it is fair to hold others, who have freely chosen the field of arts management (or to be on the board), to a similarly high standard.

If you're an executive director or a board member, then yes - keeping the budget under control is part of your job. But there's this other part of your job, too, called FUNDRAISING. If someone is not good at fundraising, then they're not good at their job. Funny how managements never say "we've tried our best, but it wasn't good enough."

I do agree with you BBodden, however I have heard more than a few conductors call musicians "complaining whiners that should be grateful to even play for change". But there are a few really supportive ones that have stood behind musicians 100%, such as the Columbus MD.

quote:

Originally posted by katinfiddle:
I do agree with you BBodden, however I have heard more than a few conductors call musicians "complaining whiners that should be grateful to even play for change". But there are a few really supportive ones that have stood behind musicians 100%, such as the Columbus MD.

If I am correct, the Jacksonville MD was silent during all of their problems. Likewise, I havent heard a peep from the guy in Shreveport. Kudos to the MD in Columbus for having guts.

On top of the price tag of the top "suits" of an orchestra, the price tag of conductors and soloists in many cases is part of the problem as well.

This is why I was not speaking about any orchestra in particular, and I also never said that all musicians think in the way smackemup thinks. As I said, I used his/her comment as the example of the sentiments quoted in the initial post of this thread. I am a musician who is represented by the AFM. I, however, did not choose to audition to play in a full-time symphony orchestra, yet I am not starving and feel very musically fulfilled.

Sometimes managements do their job, and sometimes they don't. I mentioned the Cleveland Orchestra earlier. Had there not been an option for them to fund raise in other cities around the world, cutbacks would most likely have been necessary. Speaking to the few members I know in the group, they seem to trust their management, especially since they've found a way to pay the bills. But what might be their thoughts if the bills were not able to be paid? They had a lucky break in Miami... without that, I'm sure their management would be wondering how the bills would be paid. Maybe St. Louis fits this description? (Is there anyone from that orchestra that could chime in?) Again, I pose the question... who's fault is it? Is someone not good at fund raising if they fail because there are no funds to raise?

Again, as I have said before, not all communities fit a particular description, and I'm not saying all managements do well by their employees either... but then the question should be: why is this such a major issue all over the country? It takes a certain amount of interest and a desire from ALL parties for this to work. And the outcome isn't just sink or swim, but it should question what is realistic. In some cases and in some communities, the interest only seems to be coming from the musicians who's livelihood (and sometimes a very comfortable livelihood) is at stake. Are you really going to tell me that musicians with a strong sense of entitlement are a minority among the ranks of professional orchestras?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: flyingtom,

I seem to remember someone by the name of Lawrence Foster who was formerly the music director of the Houston Symphony. He did something that I remember being one of the dumbest things a conductor could do. He picketed with the Houston Symphony musicians during a strike.

He has not held a post in American since.

quote:

Originally posted by Slacker Kind:
I seem to remember someone by the name of Lawrence Foster who was formerly the music director of the Houston Symphony. He did something that I remember being one of the dumbest things a conductor could do. He picketed with the Houston Symphony musicians during a strike.

He has not held a post in American since.

C'mon.

Is there any we we can get a semblance of REALITY with a statement like that??

Lawrence Foster lives in Europe. Why he does is anybodies guess, its a purdy place. However, the guy was director of ASPEN in the 90s. He is one of the most sought after conductors on the planet, with a resume beyond compare. A quick google reveals his current schedule:

Highlights of this and future seasons include concerts with Orchestre National de Lyon, City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin, Helsinki Philharmonic, RAI Turin, Leipzig Gewandhaus, BBC Symphony, Netherlands Radio Philharmonic, Netherlands Philharmonic, Vienna Symphony and NDR Hamburg. Additionally, Lawrence Foster will also conduct a Schumann Symphony cycle with the Czech Philharmonic in 2007/08, which will be recorded for Pentatone.

To suggest that he was penalized is beyond absurd, considering his accomplishments since then, which blow away conducting Houston in the 70s. Read his bio yourself: bio

quote:

Originally posted by Slacker Kind:
He has not held a post in American since.

Because the MD works for the board of directors. Everyone's gotta look out for themselves, so maybe Columbus' MD is the crazy one.

Theoretically the board "works" for the musicians, MD, and administration, but in a non-profit they don't get paid anything to do it. That can be a real problem and I don't think I have to explain why. So in many cases all across the country, it's just a vicious cycle that really doesn't have an end.

Yeah, I agree, Cygnus. It's a pretty broad statement to which I had the very same reaction as you. But it brings up an interesting point that is definitely worth discussing. It does seem like an extreme measure for a conductor to take. Rostropovich I think also picketed with the musicians in Washington when he was music director there, but you can argue that he's Rostropovich. It really wouldn't have affected him either way since he is and was such a name. It has been common for MDs to take off when negotiations become heated. Perhaps we've all forgotten that the MD is hired by the board, and a reputation for being an admin hater is probably not something that any conductor would want looming over their head.

Columbus apparently just began formal negotiations, so I think we'll all be curious to see how things go down. I hope for the musicians' sake and the sake of the symphony lovers in Columbus that something is figured out. I really wish them the very best.

Don't put words in my mouth Tired Arms and don't generalize about what kind of person I am. I have worked very hard to pursue my dream of playing in a symphony orchestra. That is the path that I WANTED to take. I am very fulfilled by my job. That being said I don't think it is unreasonable for me to want to be FAIRLY compensated for the work that I do. Your numerous posts in this thread belie your ignorance of how not-for-profit arts organizations work. First of all our product is in demand and in more ways than your narrow-minded scope has presented here. Second, we work for management AND they work for us. It is not a sense of entitlement that makes me say that management should secure funds by whatever means necessary. It's THEIR job description and what they signed up for. My degrees are in performance. Their degree is in arts management/business. They don't play the instrument; I don't do the business. It's a symbiotic relationship. Third, it is not only the price that MDs and soloists are paid that is bringing down orchestras. A good MD that serves as the orchestra's "face" and community liaison is worth their pay. Part of their job is to build a relationship with the community so that our relevance is maintained. If you think that a city can maintain its place or grow (in terms of attracting new businesses/corporations/citizens) without a strong cultural scene you are sorely mistaken. Finally if you believe that cuts (as with your Cleveland sans Miami scenario) are ever the answer than I am very afraid. Get yourself a history book.Cuts are never the answer!

smackemup, I do agree with you on certain things, and I do apologize for jumping to conclusions about you, which I only based on one post. We are obviously both passionate about our positions on this, but you say something that contradicts your strong position on your own situation.

"They don't play the instrument; I don't do the business"

The words administration and management don't equal fundraisers. There are two specific groups of people that are in charge of that--- development and the board, and I pointed out that the board actually has no incentive for doing it other than their passion and love for music. They don't have degrees in fundraising, but we hope that each board member has been appointed for a good reason. This is why I said in an early post that I try not to jump to conclusions about a management's incompetence without actually being there and seeing for myself what their job actually entails and how well they're actually performing... and since I'm in no position to actually do that, it makes it hard for me to comment. It's different everywhere because each community and each orchestra is different.

"Cuts are never the answer"

I'm sure you can muster up successes and failures all over the history of symphony orchestras but everything in an environment changes and evolves over time, not just inflation. Which is why there are many things in this world that also come and go and change along with it. Perhaps the changes in an orchestra that we seek and desire as musicians goes against the evolution of a given society.

I will definitely agree with you, though, that the cost of a music director should reflect his/her abilities to do ALL of the things that is required of them, which is not just to be a great musician.

I also agree that a community needs a strong cultural scene in order for it to grow, but it has to come from somewhere; it has to have a solid starting point. This is where the government (ie. EVERYONE's management) needs to enter into the picture, with something more than the NEA and teaching recorder in elementary school, if that.

something I thought of later, while I was AFK (and before I came back & saw that the discussion has continued):

If we - musicians - don't do our jobs properly, we can be fired, but no one else loses their job, or has to accept cutbacks, or whatever. With executives & boards, that is not the case.

(This is just an addendum to what I said earlier, not a response to the comments that have been added since then.)

Aspen is a music festival with students. There's no union, so therefore no opportunity to picket with musicians. He is also an alumnus of the festival, and had been a regular guest conductor up until his short-term appointment as music director.

Mr. Foster was offered the position of music director of the Pacific Symphony Orchestra in 1989. Negotiations of his contract failed because the board would not agree to his salary and was not convinced of his commitment to the organization. The offer was rescinded and Carl St. Clair was offered the position.

Mr. Foster is very much a sought-after conductor, but not in the States. Even the excerpt of his biography that was quoted does not list a single American orchestra, and it isn't until very recently that he has increased his guest conducting engagements in America. Of course they will never say why in his bio, but this is not news among those who were around then.

The dichotomy that many musicians believe exists between themselves on the one hand and 'management' on the other hand regarding monetary matters (ticket sales and fundraising) is a regressive attitude. In virtually any successful organization, the most highly valued employees are those who combine exemplary functional performance with a big-picture attitude. They have an appreciation for how they fit into the entire organization and what they themselves can do outside their functions to make things better. When an orchestra in a metropolitan area of a decent size and economy falters financially, everybody involved should take responsibility and consider what he or she could do to improve the orchestra's financial viability. For example, orchestra members should be open to meeting potential donors and encouraging them to contribute. And, by the same token, orchestral management should be receptive to good ideas, whatever their source.

quote:

Originally posted by Slacker Kind:
Aspen is a music festival with students. There's no union, so therefore no opportunity to picket with musicians. He is also an alumnus of the festival, and had been a regular guest conductor up until his short-term appointment as music director.

Slacker,

unless you know him personally and he has literally told you this, you are making fantastic assumptions. I doubt 3/4 of board members even know that there IS a musicians union, let alone would they penalize someone over it.

quote:

Mr. Foster is very much a sought-after conductor, but not in the States. Even the excerpt of his biography that was quoted does not list a single American orchestra,

He lives in Monte Carlo. Ever been there? I have. I didnt really want to leave.

European orchestras can have more rehearsal time. Several promininent Europe-based conductors have publicly said that they arent interested in fulltime American gigs due to the fundraising associated with them.

Here is a brief glimpse of just a few of his recordings: Foster recordings When you are conducting on Perlman and Paul McCartney CDs, thingz iz good. Any suggestion that he was somehow hurt by having moral conviction is just not true, its ridiculous. He conducts the greatest orchestras on the planet, and the most high-profile classical recordings ever made. Look at your blurb about the Pacific Symphony: They couldnt afford him. Yeah, I imagine that making McCartney CDs pay pretty well.

FWIW: Foster just came back to guest-conduct Houston Symphony last month. However his picketing with the HSO musicians might have affected (or didn't, for that matter) his conducting career elsewhere in the US, it didn't seem to keep HSO from hiring him to return and guest conduct in 2008.

"I doubt 3/4 of board members even know that there IS a musicians union"

Really? Now that's a pretty wild statement.

"Several promininent Europe-based conductors have publicly said that they arent interested in fulltime American gigs due to the fundraising associated with them."

Why would he have considered Pacific in the first place if he didn't want it? He said he wanted it, and they didn't give him a counter offer... they simply rescinded. And he seemed pretty surprised about that.

"When you are conducting on Perlman and Paul McCartney CDs, thingz iz good."

Perlman is a good friend of his. Perlman is the kind of artist that chooses his conductor, not some board.

And Paul McCartney CDs? C'mon. You think that's because he chose to do it or because he didn't have any thing better to do with his time and needed the money.

"He conducts the greatest orchestras on the planet, and the most high-profile classical recordings ever made."

I bet you didn't even know who he was until I mentioned him, and Google all of a sudden makes you an expert. The most high-profile recordings ever made? Again, c'mon.

Granted, he's doing fine now. Things have blown over, he's slowly building his career. I never said he wasn't a good conductor, or that he hasn't had high-profile gigs. I said that he hasn't worked in America. It's clear that he's wanted to. Do some more Googling, I'm sure you'll come up with articles about the Pacific job.