Hello everyone,

I've decided to take a little action as to the dress code issue in symphony orchestras and am starting to draft a letter that will be sent in tandem to all of the executive directors and music directors of symphonies in the U.S.

Maybe it will do nothing, but maybe not...

I welcome ideas and phrasings as to how this letter should go. It will be anonymous, but I want to indicate to these managements that it is from a constituency of players from around the country. In it, I (we) will politely but firmly call for a change in the dress, replete with suggestions.

I'd also like to say something like "X-number of players from symphonies around the country are formally calling for change..." or something to that effect, stating a number of players rather than using names. I am also considering calling on members of the community-at-large who are not in orchestras who can either give their names or make statements as to the heightened level of their willingness to attend concerts where musicians are dressed more accessibly. Kind of like a petition.

Please share ideas if you'd like, either on-board or through private message.

Thank you very much!

Though I know you guys feel it is very uncomfortable to wear formal dresses, I still find wearing tails and with the instruments in hands is the prettiest ! Men all look more handsome in tails. Women also look more elegant in gowns, but pants and high heels are also nice. And, black is the best color to match all instruments.

You can wear tees or other styles (traditional Chinese loose tops seem a trend for soloists recently ?) ofcource. But it looks not quite professional and, NOT as good looking as in formal dressing.

In a concert, I think it is also important to look at good things and listen to good music.

I cannot imagine, once the orchestra members in the U.S. succeed in fighting it, whether orchestras in other places will also change. I really don't want to see it in the future. ~~~~~ Oh no...

I've always felt that tails or tuxes looked great on the men, but that many of the women were not at formal looking. It has always seemed that there were 2 dress codes, a very formal one for men and a more casual one for women.

This probably has it roots in the bad old days when there were no women in the major orchestras. I've always assumed that when women were finally given positions, the administrations didn't know what to tell them to wear, since there was no tradition comparable to the dress code for men.

It's time to re-examine the dress code.

Soloists have it made. They can wear whatever they want. I once saw a trombone soloist wear a purple satin shirt and leather pants playing with the CSO. Quite a contrast to the Tux!!

I agree that they don't know what to do with the female players. I think they look better in gowns but in someways the formal attire is a put-off to the audience. The music needs to be more accessible, less stuffy and pretentious. Many orchestras are speaking more to the audience, using multimedia etc to bring in more people. Perhaps less formal attire would also help attract a broader audience.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Phoenix,

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Phillips:
I've always felt that tails or tuxes looked great on the men, but that many of the women were not at formal looking. It has always seemed that there were 2 dress codes, a very formal one for men and a more casual one for women.

I agree.

Sorry Basalin, but for me the dress code has to move the other way, not down. The great symphony halls are the epitome of grace and style, it IS a big occasion to step into one of them. While many orchestras have a "Beethoven in Blue Jeans" series, I would be strongly against dumbing down the subscription series. The whole "Cinderella-like" atmosphere of going to the Symphony would be lost if the joint was full of dirty smelly hippies on the stage or in the crowd.

My objection is only the fundamental discomfort of the "penguin suit." White tie & tails were made for standing around in while holding a martini. If the jacket & bow tie could be replaced with a black turtleneck, the men of most orchestras would be happier.

Of course the audience wants to see people onstage dressed like James Bond or Fred Astaire, so it's not likely to change, ever. We've had audience letters asking why the women can't wear ball gowns, like the Andre Rieu concerts on TV.

**sigh*

On a somewhat related topic:

I do remember a friend of mine telling me that when she went on a fund-raising call to the home of a potential donor, the donor's response was: "But the musicians obviously have plenty of money -- look how well they dress!"

Hi,
I agree that the formal wear for men looks great and I also agree that sometimes (it varies by person & orchestra) women don't look as formal. The problem is the discription women are given "long black dress/skirt/pants and black top"....this instruction can be followed in both a casual and formal way, but to get more specific could be crossing a line. You can't tell people what design to wear unless it is required by all women. Anyother specifics (ie type of fabric, amount to spend ...) can not guarantee that it looks dressy. One orchestra I sub in requires that the women wear long sleves, that pants not be cotton, denim or cords, and that material is black, not sparkles; they also state no jewelry on neck or arms. Has that helped, no.

As to the idea of not wearing the penguin suit...heres my idea. Have a "casual concert" or "open dress rehearsal" where ticket prices are more reasonable, not the full program, and orchestra is in their street clothing; afterward have a meet-n-greet at a local restaurant/bar. This idea is based on the stigma that Orchestra concerts are for the wealthy and those that want to be seen - this could so Joe Everyman/woman that music is good if you enjoy it, and you don't need to be a blue blood or high educated or musically educated to enjoy it. This should be an occassional thing to help gain interest in the symphony.

I feel that the formal look is important - really the look is not designed to be formal but more servant like. Think about it - back in the day musicians/composers and such were hired by the "court" and were just part of their staff. The uniform was to keep them in a unified look as not to distract from the most important aspect - THE MUSIC!

Finally, I feel that by looking good we are giving respect to what we are trying to do - honoring the composers by playing their music to the best of our ability. Getting a job is tough enough, making it a fashion contest would just add to the great numbers of difficulties in being a musician.

Just my thoughts - take 'em or leave 'em.
W2
PS I cant spell, so please be nice about any errors!

Personally, ball gowns would be quite uncomfortable to wear. I guess men could say the same thing about tuxes, but... until there's a change in women's dress code, I don't mind just the regular black look. I like to see the variety of women's dress shirts because some of them are quite pretty. However, I do have a few complaints, & I'm sure many women in the audience would agree with these. 1st, sleeve-length should be AT LEAST to the elbow, not just barely covering your shoulders. I'll refrain from saying why... although I find this problem more with college students. 2nd, shirt length should cover ALL of your midriff whether you stand or sit. It's rather distracting sometimes when string players (ESP violins) sitting down aren't covered in the back all the way . And also, I like cute, flattering tops just as much as anyone. You can be sexy & classy at the same time, BUT with certain V necks, there's a time & a place. And just because someone may go to a bar later on doesn't mean they should wear the same attire.

quote:

Originally posted by Phoenix:
Soloists have it made. They can wear whatever they want. I once saw a trombone soloist wear a purple satin shirt and leather pants playing with the CSO. Quite a contrast to the Tux!!

Exactly, quite a contrast. If orchestras weren't already dressed at the highest formal level (tails), then soloists (the males, anyway) could wear tails and stand out as the soloists. I've never understood why the men's dress for formal concerts isn't simply tux/black tie.

Like grade inflation, we've had dress inflation, in a race to make every audience feel like it's the most special ever. So not only are we wearing tails every Fri/Sat, we're also wearing tuxedos for weddings at 11 am. I've played gigs at 10 am that have required tails. It's absurd, but it's what the market seems to want; it's not just music we're selling, it's the sense of "it's a super-special occasion"

I agree that dress codes for women do seem a lot more relaxed although I would hate to go back to the ball gown days. A certain orchestra in the UK used to wear green tafeta gowns which looked good on nobody and any extras/subs got the spare ones out of the closet which were either size 26 or size 4. Also for a female percussionist they just aren't practical. As for sleeve length, maybe it should be age specific - no one like to see bingo wings particularly in tremelo passages...

No one wants to see ball gowns like that, not even the audience. Long skirts and dresses are consistent with the tails but that sounds awful.

Earlier this year, when Yuri Simonov and the Moscow Philharmonic came to HK, one of violists wore a black see-through long sleeves tight top with a black tube top bra inside, and a long skirt from the waistline. That evening dress (one piece ?) looked very classy, sexy and most important, looked very comfortable.

quote:

Originally posted by Artemis:
one of violists wore a black see-through long sleeves tight top with a black tube top bra inside,

This post would be much better with pictures.

quote:

Originally posted by Cygnus:

This post would be much better with pictures.

I could not find any pictures of hers even when I checked with the HK Arts Festival website. But I can tell you she is a blonde with straight hair. So she was really attrative on stage.

attractive blonde/seethru top....hired only because she is a hot player... On topic, gents, I like the idea of black turtle neck under jacket (like the ladies bat wings, we do not need to see pot bellies or man boobs). And I agree, all ladies should be attired attractively with sleeves at least to elbow and flattering cuts of gowns/pants/tops as well as appropriate materials ( cords are not right for evening!). As a previous poster said, what's appropriate for the bar later in not appropriate on stage (and save the quasi streetwalker gear for your private home life)

My orchestra has a relaxed-yet-strict dress code for women: sleeves must be full length, pants/skirts must be floor length, etc. Apparently before I joined it used to say just "all black," and there was a hottie violinist who took that to mean knee-length black boots, black mini-skirt, and black boob tube. I guess management was worried that she might catch cold...

More recently, language had to be added to the dress code to eliminate the display of midriff &/or butt crack.

The dress code relaxes a tiny bit (for men) for our "Casual Classics" series: black pants, black dressy shirt. Maybe I should invest in one of those zippered turtleneck thingies -- I've got some man boobs & graying chest hair that the world needs to see.

Seriously though -- to go back to the original poster's topic for a minute: we've gotten several audience comments, and even some letters, complaining about how the women are not all dressed exactly alike. I suppose not everyone feels that way, but the ones who write are the ones whose opinions get heard. Management has not shown any interest in pursuing this, but I have a feeling that if we try to go with a more casual style there would be even more objections.

Interesting comments so far. There are, clearly, a lot of ways to look at this. The letter being drafted is designed mainly to provide possible alternatives mixed with a strong message for the need to change. Let's face it: If every concert were sold out, nobody would be wondering if what players were wearing was contributing to fostering an atmosphere that was keeping people away. Many more people would like to come to the symphony if it actually WAS about the music and not about whatever else. Ask anybody who doesn't go to the symphony why they don't go.

Also, about dress, I said "change," not "casual." Wearing something more common but no less dressy would be very positive in making many more people who ordinarily would not come feel comfortable about coming to hear the symphony. I think it would be good to introduce the idea of dress changing to managements by suggesting that it be done for a trial season. The people that wouldn't come because players aren't in tuxedos would be replaced by those who would.

quote:

Originally posted by basalin69:
The people that wouldn't come because players aren't in tuxedos would be replaced by those who would.

Wow. You're willing to sell out your loyal audience of the past 200 years? Not me.

quote:

Ask anybody who doesn't go to the symphony why they don't go.

Umm, we wanted to go hear Verklaerte Nacht but were put off with the tuxedos??

Please see the other discussion thread with the same name (dress code changes) for a short poll about whether or not you would like to see dress changes. We're just asking people to indicate their preferences in order to be able to cite numbers to managements. If you have a moment, please respond---thank you!