I often enjoy the comments and topics and sharing of information on these postings. Some contributors in particular (Sam B, Charles N, among others) always seem to have helpful, interesting, and professionally valuable things to say.

However, I find myself less and less interested to visit this site and read postings, as certain contributors use such inflammatory tones and phrases, somehow managing to be both offensive and defensive at the same time.

We are all colleagues in some way here, and it amazes me how colleagues (or potential colleagues) will flame others, who they have not even met in person, with judgmental, harsh, very unkind words.

I cannot help but wryly imagine two people who have flamed each other on this site meeting someday on the job, hitting it off well in person, and then discovering somehow that they were the people who had ranted at each other on these discussion forms.

How about this: Before attacking someone else from behind the safety zone of pseudonym-induced anonymity, imagine that they will be judging you on your next audition committee or peer review. Make the recipient a real human colleague in your mind's eye. Perhaps some people in this forum may re-think their tone and choice of words...

Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by CeciliaB:

How about this: Before attacking someone else from behind the safety zone of pseudonym-induced anonymity, imagine that they will be judging you on your next audition committee or peer review. Make the recipient a real human colleague in your mind's eye. Perhaps some people in this forum may re-think their tone and choice of words...

And, we should not just think of how many advantages we can get from a potential one so that we treat him or her nice. We should try to take it as a habit to be nice to someone that you cannot see and you don't know (or you can think the one you just spoke to is an animal, a creature or monster...). I think if it can be as a part of our personality, even if we will never meet, we will still be a popular person and other people in this field will be nice to us and our life will be easier and happier.

it's hard enough trying to be respectful of people you don't even know on a message board. but how about respecting your fellow musicians???! the more i hear about talk & 'gossip' from people from all over the place in other orchestras, it seems like a little etiquette could be taught in music schools you know, the usual talking behind people's backs, spreading biased rumours, being 2-faced, & yes, let's not forget the eye-rolling from some section players when wind players so much as crack or miss a note. even simply saying "hello" to your fellow musicians is a warm welcome!! apparently some people never learned how to do that, no matter how old they are. it's one thing to talk to your friends &/or people in you section, that's fine. i'm talking about people that either blatantly look at you with no response even if you smile at them, or seem to ignore you just because they don't know you. i could go on.

Speaking as someone who really doesn't post here, but is an active professional musician, I will say that compared to other message boards, this one is fairly tame, but people seem very quick to get their feelings hurt or throw insults at others.

It seems that some posts here reflect a certain amount of egotistical, childish whining that one also, unfortunately, sometimes finds in the real world of orchestral musicians. It also seems as though some people will be a little too thin skinned, and get offended over various remarks that were either made in humor, or were not that serious to begin with.

In my experience, in school and in the professional world, classical musicians often take themselves WAY too seriously and have a rather high opinion of themselves personally and professionally. I've been amazed (and disappointed) at how "cliquish", and selfish many musicians can be. We as professional musicians are lucky to be in a position to earn a living playing and teaching music. With public support for the arts being what it presently is, the last thing the public needs to see is a bunch of "elite" musicians complaining about water bottles, or bickering about alleged favoritism in an audition. I say this because, after all this IS a public forum. You never know who is reading. We all know the demands of the job, and I have my own gripes about my professional details, but let's be honest, it's not like we're out building skyscrapers, or working in coal mines. If/when the non-musical public were to read this discussion forum, they might be perplexed why any of us are complaining in the first place, and would probably view many of the discussions as rather ridiculous.

My point is that the attitudes one often finds here are sometimes childish and self centered, and laughable at best. Unfortunately, it is also an anonymous, unfiltered reflection of the "real world" attitudes many of our colleagues have. It would be nice if a more substantial and articulate discussion of the orchestral business could take place. Some of the seasoned professionals on this board, however, do seem to have a bit more perspective on things. It's nice to read that occasionally.

quote:

Originally posted by bill_tx:


..... this IS a public forum. You never know who is reading. We all know the demands of the job, and I have my own gripes about my professional details, but let's be honest, it's not like we're out building skyscrapers, or working in coal mines. If/when the non-musical public were to read this discussion forum, they might be perplexed why any of us are complaining in the first place, and would probably view many of the discussions as rather ridiculous.

Not quite sure about this position. If you had an internet site devoted to bricklayers and their union, I'm sure there would be quite a bit of detailed "shop talk" about the best method of laying bricks, the composition of mortar, etc. (all probably discussed in what would seem to be agonizing, silly detail to a layman), good and bad foremen, the pros and cons of the union hall and union officials, best available work clothing and so forth, all laced with a good deal of griping and complaining about politics, as human affairs usually are. I don't think it would appear ridiculous, just rather boring and uninteresting because the minutia of a profession usually are to outsiders.

quote:

Originally posted by orchdork:
i'm talking about people that either blatantly look at you with no response even if you smile at them, or seem to ignore you just because they don't know you.

But I will not smile back to someone that the smile is not sincere and even, a bit irritating. It's extremely uncomfortable. Just ignoring him or her is the best way to be frank to myself. There was just once I didn't smile back to someone that smiled sincerely and cheerfully simply because of my hesitation, which I regretted for many years.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Artemis,

The internet has brought a new kind of relationship between people. This forum provides a conduit for those relationships. It is a great tool, yet can be abused. When I saw this post, I immediately thought of Doug Yeo's article What Happened to the Internet? It's a long, but excellent read. For example, he discusses the way the anonymity provided by such a forum grants priveleges unheard of in the past: "Cloaking behind the veil of anonymity, anyone - learned or uneducated, expert or novice, genius or idiot, wise man or fool, serious student or troublemaker - can post a message. If a learned person makes a point, anyone in the group can take them on, tell them they're stupid, that they don't know what they're talking about, that they know better. How many times have I cringed when I've watched some young, inexperienced player on a forum lay into the sound or technique of an accomplished, well-respected player?" While it might be fun to sign on as an alias and poke fun, I tend to respect postings from those who make no attempt to hide their identity. ... but that's just me ...

Thanks for the link to that great article by Doug Yeo. It is a thoughtful, well-written article that accurately describes the trend that is happening on the Internet today. Required reading for all!

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Mueller:
The internet has brought a new kind of relationship between people. This forum provides a conduit for those relationships. It is a great tool, yet can be abused ........ While it might be fun to sign on as an alias and poke fun, I tend to respect postings from those who make no attempt to hide their identity. ... but that's just me ...

I've written quite a few posts about audition procedures, many critical, and have come under criticism myself for choosing to remain anonymous. My own belief is: if you name names and indulge in criticisms of players, or make accusations of fraud regarding an audition, you should sign your posts. But if you deal in general arguments about various audition systems and happenings, as I have at least tried to do (not always with 100% success) I can't see any harm in anonymity - it may even be better, for multiple reasons.

The readers of a post might give too much weight to the opinions expressed if they knew those views came from Gustavo Dudamel, Conductor Designate of the L.A. Phil, as opposed to less weight if written by Abu ben Marcato [he-of-the-powerful-bowstroke, may he be granted Eternal Tenure], last chair 2nd violin of I Solisti di Timbuktu. But wouldn't both extremes be wrong? Shouldn't a position or argument stand or fall solely on its own merit, independent of who wrote it? Shouldn't we concentrate on issues rather than personalities? (And shouldn't I avoid lame attempts at corny humor?)

Those of us who have pupils and relatives starting to make their way in the profession don't want them to be tainted by some of the silly things that have escaped from our keyboards.

And finally, there is the very occasional nutball out there (anybody been reading the recent posts?) You can't be too careful about putting personal information on the internet.

I agree with those who advise ignoring the words or paragraphs you deem offensive, and just taking what good you can from each post. Refute the points with which you disagree as passionately as you like, but in a civilized manner. Musicians are notoriously hyper-sensitive and paranoid, taking offense quickly and too easily; putting a cap on the abusive language can only help to lower the temperature.

We could also avoid difficult issues and write nothing but pablum posts, but then nothing of consequence would get debated or resolved. So let the fur fly, but within reasonable bounds. As the old Polish proverb says, "When you chop wood, splinters fly". There will always be those who will become your enemy for what you have written, especially if it's controversial or out-of-the-box, but that's inevitable.

The poet put it best:

You have no enemy, you say;
My friend your boast is poor,
He who hath mingled in the fray
Of duty that the brave endure
Must have made foes. If he has none
Small is the work that he has done.
He has hit no traitor on the hip;
Has cast no cup from perjured lip;
Has never turned the wrong to right;
Has been a coward in the fight.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Feuermann,

"Feuermann"- your posts are always well written and well thought out, and I don't personally really mind if you choose to contribute anonymously. But for my sake could you at least please somehow clarify that you are not me? (Perhaps someone from MyAuditions could kindly confirm this?) I keep hearing from people who assume that your writing is mine, because of my long involvement with Feuermann's work (I'm assuming I must probably know you, though I'm not certain) I admire your intensity, but I personally gave up arguing on internet forums years ago to concentrate on making enemies in real life, and I'm sure I can step on enough toes on my own without also getting hit by your 'splinters'... So if you could somehow clarify this situation, it would be much appreciated. I'm sure you wouldn't want to be mistaken for me either! Thanks. Best regards- Brinton Smith, Houston Symphony (aka BA, batcello)

I'm definitely not you, and I don't think we've ever met. I admire Feuermann greatly as an artist and love his old recordings. But don't assume that I'm a cellist, although I do play a stringed instrument.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Feuermann,

quote:

Originally posted by Artemis:

But I will not smile back to someone that the smile is not sincere and even, a bit irritating. It's extremely uncomfortable. Just ignoring him or her is the best way to be frank to myself. There was just once I didn't smile back to someone that smiled sincerely and cheerfully simply because of my hesitation, which I regretted for many years.

This can be a problem too, & I'm sure everyone's done this unintentionally at one time or another. I know I have! I'm not saying we should all walk around with fake smiles pasted on our faces, of course I'm mostly thinking of repeated attempts to acknowledge someone you hardly know, but they still hardly give you the time of day, even if you talk to the same people they do. or they're the type of person always looking around for someone more interesting, now THAT gets on my nerves

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Mueller:
While it might be fun to sign on as an alias and poke fun, I tend to respect postings from those who make no attempt to hide their identity. ... but that's just me ...

I don't have a problem with people posting anonymously as long as they don't talk about others unnecessarily or pick fights with other users because they don't see things their way. I post anonymously because I just don't want someone to find reasons to judge me for things I say & either misconstrue what I meant (ie, sometimes when reading back on posts after the fact, they may not come across exactly as I intended), or take offense at something I feel strongly about. I'm sure people will do that no matter what, so I would just rather not have my name attached, no matter how positive or negatively someone feels about something I post.

quote:

Originally posted by orchdork:

This can be a problem too, & I'm sure everyone's done this unintentionally at one time or another. I know I have! I'm not saying we should all walk around with fake smiles pasted on our faces, of course I'm mostly thinking of repeated attempts to acknowledge someone you hardly know, but they still hardly give you the time of day, even if you talk to the same people they do. or they're the type of person always looking around for someone more interesting, now THAT gets on my nerves

Huh, which means I am far more luckier than you ?!

After feeling regret for many years, one day I suddenly found that person at the same place. Then finally I could return back what I owed. (envy??? )

So, keep going and wish you will win those people someday. Good luck !