Check this out:
http://www.clevescene.com/2007-02-14/news/sour-notes/

Seems like some pretty serious charges to be throwing around based on anonymous sources making claims that probably can never be proven.

right?!?! and should SUCH tabloid journalism be the headline on myauditions? is that appropriate? Whether you agree or disagree with any or all of the assertions in the article, it is clearly one sided and was not done with much journalistic integrity. Would the NYTimes print an article like that? Never. Should myauditions? It's a very questionable choice and one that I find very disturbing.

Without commenting on the specific story (simply because I don't have any independent knowledge about it,) I would point out that Cleveland Scene, while not a standard daily paper, is far from a supermarket tabloid. It is a respected alternative weekly, much like the Boston Phoenix or Minnesota's City Pages. As most alternative papers do, it takes a more aggressive and less objective angle to many of its stories than a daily would, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a legitimate journalistic source. Don't forget that earlier this season, when both Seattle dailies were more or less ignoring the gathering storm surrounding Gerard Schwarz and the musicians of the Seattle Symphony, it was Seattle Weekly that took the plunge and published a scathing (and well-balanced) expose on the subject.

Again, this doesn't mean that I'm saying that any of the allegations against Mr. Preucil are either true or untrue. I'm merely pointing out that the story cannot simply be dismissed because of where it appeared.

quote:

and should SUCH tabloid journalism be the headline on myauditions? is that appropriate? Whether you agree or disagree with any or all of the assertions in the article, it is clearly one sided and was not done with much journalistic integrity.

Its a story about a classical symphony violinist. Errr, what we talk about here. So far, people have showed extreme restraint and that should stay. It certainly is news, especially since an institution of higher learning ( and young folk) is involved.

There have been articles about one violinists drug problem here, and a murder of a string player. Myauditions is a source for news stories about classical music and orchestras, and I personally appreciate the stories here, without any editorial comment about them.

quote:

Originally posted by mlsandor:
right?!?! and should SUCH tabloid journalism be the headline on myauditions? is that appropriate? Whether you agree or disagree with any or all of the assertions in the article, it is clearly one sided and was not done with much journalistic integrity. Would the NYTimes print an article like that? Never. Should myauditions? It's a very questionable choice and one that I find very disturbing.

When this story came across my desk, I struggled whether or not to feature it for the weekend edition, realizing it would provoke a heated discussion. I read through the entire article and while there may be some doubt to the validity of the accusations against Mr. Preucil, there were Cleveland Orchestra members who not only agreed with the accusations, but publicly disclosed their real names in the article. Had no CSO names been made public, I would have simply dismissed this article out of hand as hearsay and rumour.

While I, nor my company, or employees agree with the assertions by featuring it, we feel that we do have a responsibility to our members to report it. It is up to our members to decide what to do with it.

Once side note that should be made public here. First, the Cleveland Institute of Music is a valued registered member of MyAuditions for several years now and second, I am an alumni having attended from 1982-1984.

"Will the man who was supposed to save the orchestra end up destroying it?"


Both parts of this sentence are just silly.

"In the late '80s, he took a job touring with the Cleveland Quartet, a group considered to be the Beatles of classical music"

What garbage reporting. I cannot believe that any publication of any weight and any value would even think of publishing this filth.

The above excerpt isn't bad necessarily, it just shows the type of sensationalism that the author is after.

I'm puzzled by much of the outrage directed at the paper that ran this article. Maybe it has some stylistic shortcomings, but as Sam Bergman noted, alternative weeklies like this one often take on issues that the more stately dailies won't touch.

In any event, there are two facts not being disputed, which IMHO makes the Cleveland/Preucil situation fair game for journalistic inquiry:

- Two of William Preucil's relatives have won auditions since he became Concertmaster; and

- CIM settled a claim against him by a former student for inappropriate behavior (which in legal terms may not be an admission of guilt, but in practical terms is usually seen that way).

It's perfectly fair to ask just how open and objective an audition process is when any member's sister and brother-in-law subsequently win auditions in the same group; given the competition for spots in top-level orchestras (IIRC, Boston recently had 150 applicants for one section violin job), basic probability suggests it's unlikely that TWO relatives of a current orchestra member would separately win auditions unless some other factor was at work - maybe not Mr. Preucil putting his thumb on the scales, but at least the non-screened audition process, a preference for known quantities - or not wanting to alienate the orchestra's most powerful member? People who basically say "how dare they question Stephen Rose's hiring - he's great!" miss the point. No doubt he is great. And no doubt the person they could have hired instead of him was, too.

I find the comment by several persons that the hiring decision is made by the music director interesting. Surely the Cleveland musicians haven't ceded their rights over selecting new members? At a minimum they judge the early rounds, thus driving much of the music director's final decision. And I find it highly unlikely that a music director wouldn't rely heavily on the advice of an esteemed concertmaster when considering how to fill a violin vacancy.

As for Cleveland's quality being a vindication of their audition process, I find that laughable. This whole forum exists largely because there are too many highly qualified musicians chasing too few jobs. An orchestra like Cleveland would have to try pretty hard to hire an inept player, no matter how much it may rig the game in favor of CIM grads (who nobody disputes should generally be highly qualified) and other insiders. Maybe their audition process is best - they have a way of winnowing down the field and honing in on the people they want - but they may be great in spite of their process rather than because of it.

Anyway, I find all this fair game for a newspaper investigation.

I don't disagree that a lot of the above discussion is entirely legitimate - that's what's great about myauditions.

Here are just a few points about the article that I find useless and sensationalist:


That Preucil would leave his family at home during tours. Don't a lot of musicians make the same choice?

That it matters or is interesting/relevant that he played cards while on tour.

That he tours and gets time off from the orchestra to do other concerts - every major concertmaster does this. That part isn't mentioned...

That his gaze "lingers" - if that isn't subjective, I don't know what is!

I also found the trashing of his daughter so inappropriate...

The audition thing - you can expend a lot of energy worrying about unfairness everywhere...showing up and playing well as often as you can is the best way to combat that issue.

And actually, the music director is at the entire Cleveland audition - so the committee is not judging the early rounds. Frequently there are only two rounds in Cleveland, although it does occasionally go to a third round...

And does every great orchestra not tend to hire the people they trained, especially when there's a conservatory that is closely affiliated? Philadelphia? Vienna? How unique is Cleveland in this?

Absolutely there are issues in the article that are fair game for an unbiased journalistic investigation. That's not what the Scene article is, regardless if it's a respected alternative paper or not.

quote:

Here are just a few points about the article that I find useless and sensationalist:


That Preucil would leave his family at home during tours. Don't a lot of musicians make the same choice?

That it matters or is interesting/relevant that he played cards while on tour.

That he tours and gets time off from the orchestra to do other concerts - every major concertmaster does this. That part isn't mentioned...

That his gaze "lingers" - if that isn't subjective, I don't know what is!

You might be reading the article as a musician. Real people are supposed to read the article too When an actor "mimes" playing an instrument, we all know he is not, but the public doesn't. If this was about a plumber it would have been written the same way. Anyhoo, it doesnt really matter, the point of the article is undeniable.

I think that Cygnus is right. Reading it as a musician in the know is different than reading it as a lay person. Quite likely this person was "given" this story from an editor and had to make something out of it. Obviously this person is not a musician and, given some of the writing style, a novice journalist. After reading the article it sounds like she threw everything into the pot and you have the decision to make of it what you will.

I haven't counted heads, but certainly Cleveland and Philly have reputations for having a disproportionate number of such folks in their ranks. I'm not aware of similar such ties between, say, Juilliard-NYPO, NEC/BU-BSO, or CSO-Northwestern. I certainly haven't heard anyone complain about the Chicago string section being filled by students of Sam Magad, Charles Pickler and John Sharp.

I actually think mentioning the daughter in the article is perfectly fair (though perhaps not comments on her playing ability); she's an adult and old enough to realize that people might resent the concertmaster's daughter getting hired as an extra, no matter how well she may play.

Whether Preucil plays cards on tour, leaves the family at home - agreed, who cares? I thought that was the writer's effort to mitigate the darker aspects of the article to show that he's often behaved like a perfectly regular guy.

I'd also say that much of the nepotism thing is probably attributable as much to Cleveland's inbred audition process (esp. the lack of a screen) as to any inordinate influence Mr. Preucil might wield.

I am GLAD someone mentioned the point about the Cleveland Quartet being like the Beatles...I found it absolutely hilarious. I myself am addicted to their recording of the Brahms Piano Quintet/ Clarinet Trio, but that's such incredible nonsense...

We're now attacking major orchestras for building unique sounds because we didn't benefit from the perceived advantage of going to the schools mentioned? Vienna, Philly and Cleveland are orchestras people love, and if their processes in any way helps the state of classical music in present times, I say we should leave them alone.
The other thing is that we can't really compare conservatory situations in Cleveland, Philly, NYC, Boston, Chicago and Vienna. Cleveland, Philly and Vienna have some of the most successful conservatory programmes in the world, and my point is that they don't have too much competition on their home front. In NYC alone we have three of our biggest conservatories, in Chicago we have DePaul, Roosevelt and Northwestern sharing the orchestra musicians as faculty, and in Boston we have another set of successful schools competing. I really don't think that Cleveland and Philly are being unfair to other musicians- they just have their own way of finding what they want and a very uniform way of producing that. Look at the oboe sections in Cleveland and Philly- it's strictly Mack and de Lancie/Woodhams lines there. At the same token, can we argue that those are arguably the most successful teachers of their times? Curtis and CIM students get jobs in many, many orchestras because they are some of the best graduates in the music world- so why not a higher percentage at home?

quote:

I really don't think that Cleveland and Philly are being unfair to other musicians- they just have their own way of finding what they want and a very uniform way of producing that.

Well, if they are actually holding auditions, it is borderline criminal in my book if the job is already spoken for through some sort of nepotism. People pay good money to take auditions, its a charade that they are even held if this goes on. I would respect it more if they just called a spade a spade and hired who they wanted.

The layperson wont understand this, he/she sees a famous institution being weakened by hiring through nepotism, and it does make some sense.

I have never met a string player with a "CIM" sound. I dont think it exists. In the woodwind world, perhaps it does. In the string world, there may be different grips and whatnot, but its not like students in Cleveland sound different that students in Boston, or Fargo for that matter.

"I have never met a string player with a "CIM" sound. I dont think it exists. In the woodwind world, perhaps it does. In the string world, there may be different grips and whatnot, but its not like students in Cleveland sound different that students in Boston, or Fargo for that matter."

I couldn't disagree more. Obviously a school will not have "a sound" like an orchestra does, but we all model (even unconsciously) our sounds on our mentors and what we hear around us, be it recordings or live performances. One of my greatest compliments was when someone guessed whose studio I was in because they could hear his sound in my playing, and I am by no means trying to imitate him. When you have an orchestra with such a distinct sound like Cleveland and a vast bulk of the faculty playing in that ensemble, you’re going to get more students with that type of a sound rather than say a European sound. It makes complete sense to me why someone who had studied and been surrounded by a particular sound for so long would have a better shot at getting that gig. Finding your sound is just as important a part of studying as mastering your technique.

I'm glad someone mentioned how the Cleveland and Philly oboe sections have long been filled by John Mack and Woodhams/DeLancie students, respectively.

It's true they are/were great and influential teachers whose students have made their way into many orchestras. And at one time, to be fair, the Chicago oboe section consisted of Ray Still and his former students (though generally his students haven't penetrated the oboe world nearly as extensively).

But the Mack/DeLancie/Woodhams diaspora isn't just a reflection of their teaching skills or the quality of their students. More than a few landed in jobs through direct intervention, or simply a conductor calling them up for advice or an actual name to fill a job (or in Philly/Cleveland, simply b/c the audition fields were less than wide open). It was no secret that lots of oboists went to study with Mack b/c they figured he could help pave the way into an orchestra - and not just by teaching them how to best play their excerpts. Surely there are other teachers who have similar reputations for similar reasons.

Interesting that nobody has mentioned Mr. Preucil's concertmaster training program. Which on one hand makes perfect sense - a leading CM passing on the art/craft to a new generation. But a more sinister take on it could be that it puts him into a position to be a kingmaker; conductors deciding it might be easier to call Bill Preucil and ask him to send them someone, rather than making the effort to recruit/audition people themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by jwddewy:
I couldn't disagree more. Obviously a school will not have "a sound" like an orchestra does, but we all model (even unconsciously) our sounds on our mentors and what we hear around us, be it recordings or live performances. .

Obviously. But there is no "city" sound. If there was, people at schools like IU would have no "sound", since there is no major orchestra. Consider that many of past CIM teachers didnt play in the band, and that some students might not take advantage of the concerts. Anyone can buy a CD

If there was a "CIM" sound, certainly one could pick it from behind a screen.

Until the screen goes up in Cleveland, they will deserve all the criticisms they get on their "ususual" audition practices. Preserving their sound to me is a lame excuse to allow prejudice and neptotism to rule the day. If jobs weren't so scarce, I'd say Cleveland auditions should be boycotted until they change their audition pracitices. Why should you spend your hard earned money as well as time and effort to audition for a position that is either taken already or they won't fill it anyway like the trombone position which has been vacant for 4 years!!

Wow, can you imagine what this board would look like if it had been a FLUTIST accused of all this?

quote:

Originally posted by OSF:

As for Cleveland's quality being a vindication of their audition process, I find that laughable. This whole forum exists largely because there are too many highly qualified musicians chasing too few jobs. An orchestra like Cleveland would have to try pretty hard to hire an inept player, no matter how much it may rig the game in favor of CIM grads (who nobody disputes should generally be highly qualified) and other insiders. Maybe their audition process is best - they have a way of winnowing down the field and honing in on the people they want - but they may be great in spite of their process rather than because of it.

I agree with Cleveland being good no matter how they choose to pick players. But I still don't understand or agree how a player could take auditions for big orchestras w/ more of an open call like, for example, LA or Chicago, & not even get to play for Cleveland. They really need to open up their audition process more. They can still be selective, like pre-screening resumes like a lot of orchestras do. Heck, even some smaller regional orchestras pre-screen resumes. It may take longer, but they'll still get good players anyway. I didn't even submit my resume for the last flute audition because I knew they'd send me that generic "tape invite" form. Who knows, they may have liked me, but their loss... next audition that will actually let me go there & play