quote:

Originally posted by BBodden:
Wow, can you imagine what this board would look like if it had been a FLUTIST accused of all this?

i think... i would just have to try to stay out of that discussion

But I still don't understand or agree how a player could take auditions for big orchestras w/ more of an open call like, for example, LA or Chicago, & not even get to play for Cleveland.


How Cleveland runs it's auditions can not and should not be compared to anywhere else. It does not matter if you are invited to one audition and not to another. As I think another person pointed out, people are just sounding of their frustrations because there are TOO many musicians and not enough jobs. Personally, I would rather not be invited to an audition and not waste the money, then to go to an audition where I only get to play for like 3 mins. Yes some places do invite many people, but they don't get to play. In Cleveland at least people get to play for a good amount of time. There is no perfect system. But can anybody really question the quality of the Cleveland orchestra? Wow, we've really gotten off the subject of this forum.

quote:

Wow, we've really gotten off the subject of this forum.

Yes, talking about the audition process is way off topic on a forum devoted to the audition process

quote:

But can anybody really question the quality of the Cleveland orchestra?

Nobody is doing that. It's not really the point. If any orchestra is good, one could only imagine "what could have been" if there was no nepotism or cronyism involved. An orchestra is only as good as it's weakest player.

I am all for removing charades in the audition process, it's a crime when orchestras hold auditions for jobs already spoken for. Just do it, give the gig to the pre-chosen player, and stop wasting people's money. At the same time, it would radically change the University system. You would have to go to the school in the city of the orchestra, which would make schools like Indiana and Michigan obsolete.

The article alleges that people were unfairly treated at actual auditions via nepostism. If there is any truth to that then people were scammed outta their money to take the audition. That's quite different than just giving a gig away, its highway robbery. I am certainly not supporting the article nor questioning it, I have no clue. But that IS what it alleges, and that is hopefully what we are trying to avoid at every single audition anywhere.

Traveling cross-country, getting hotels and taking months to practice is expensive. If a job is not there, the orchestra is scamming people out of their money. In other businesses, Attorney Generals look into such practices. We, for some strange reason, just blindly accept it.

I agree with your point 110%!!! Orchestras should stop having auditions for positions that are already spoken for. It's just not fair to waste people's time and money like that.

quote:

Originally posted by Cygnus:

quote:

Wow, we've really gotten off the subject of this forum.

Yes, talking about the audition process is way off topic on a forum devoted to the audition process

lol, thanks for pointing this out. exactly, how did i get off topic?? the article clearly stated how NOT having a screen up possibly made it unfair for some of his family members to get their foot in the door. I was going to comment on that, but refrained (& still am) because I don't know the real facts. But this just brought up exactly why i commented about their audition process to begin with. Yes, it is the orchestra's perogative to run an audition how they like, & they probably will continue to do that since enough people think it's a good idea, but it's still people's right to disagree with it. This article just brought up a weakness in their system to me (I'm NOT questioning any players involved, just the audition process). I'm not questioning the orchestra's level either, I would've just simply liked to have played for them w/out having to have possibly gone to a school in a Ohio. But oh well, it did save me a couple of trips.

quote:

Originally posted by Bucusaw:
Cygnus,

You make excellent points in your post. I have enjoyed reading many of your insightful comments but one statement from your last post seems incorrect.

"An orchestra is only as good as it's weakest player."

Really?

Hi Bucusaw,

the phrase is an old adage past down to me by a revered teacher, who ironically was in the .....


Cleveland Orchestra. I dont think it is meant to be taken so literally, it's more of a metaphor. That said, it does hold a certain truth. Sure, every string section in the world has a few clunkers but it's more of a guideline to keep in mind, ESPECIALLY when hiring in an inappropriate fashion, since a new hire can stay for life often.

wow... sounds like sgarabotto failed a Cleveland audition.

In any case, I know of a lot of top violinists who have praised Preucil's playing, and somehow I doubt that sgarabotto has much to brag about by way of abilities. This sounds like jealousy.

Also, I find it interesting that somehow Preucil is hurting Cleveland, considering that many of us and the discerning public think Cleveland is the best orchestra in the USA right now.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Morassi,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by g_sgarabotto:
----------------------------------------------

This is absolutely uncalled for. In fact the entire post by this person screams "I've got an axe to grind". I surly hope this whole post is edited soon.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MyAuditions,

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MyAuditions,

Unbelievable! The truth was spoken and you and others can't handle the truth. My posting did not violate #5 OR #8. Rather I was restating with commentary on what has already been published in the Meiser's original article. I can't believe you are trying to cover for a serial sexual predator. This is not an accusation. It is known fact. Sexual harrassment between teacher and student is unnacceptable and criminal. What student for the sake of justice is really willing go up against a major educational institution and a world renown musician? She(they) wouldn't have much of a chance and little hope for a career.

I believe the quote of dumb and dumber in reference to Prucil and Most and the comparison to the playing of a Suzuki student goes way over the line. You are talking about respected professional musicians and you should treat them as such no matter what they do or don’t do off stage.

quote:

Originally posted by g_sgarabotto:
MyAuditions,

Unbelievable! The truth was spoken and you and others can't handle the truth. My posting did not violate #5 OR #8. Rather I was restating with commentary on what has already been published in the Meiser's original article. I can't believe you are trying to cover for a serial sexual predator. This is not an accusation. It is known fact. Sexual harrassment between teacher and student is unnacceptable and criminal. What student for the sake of justice is really willing go up against a major educational institution and a world renown musician? She(they) wouldn't have much of a chance and little hope for a career.

Unless the accused has charges filed against him/her in a court of law and it is well documented in writing, it is not appropriate to post on MyAuditions regardless if it documented in another periodical.

In addition, using the word "pig" in reference to a person in one of your edited postings is a violation referencing paragraph 5 of our discussion forum guidelines.

We are insuring that legal action against MyAuditions does not occur as a result of your anonymous posting. If legal charges are brought against Rebecca Meiser of the Cleveland Scene as a result of her article, then there is a person and an employer in which a lawsuit can be attached. You, however, are posting anonymously and that does not give MyAuditions a level of legal protection.

We may, however, allow unedited postings by you only if you publicly post your real name, job position, and your employer on all future postings. We would also want you to confirm your real identity by sending your contact details (name, address, phone, email, employer) via a private message to us. Once this information is confirmed, we will keep it confidential unless legal authorities request it as a result of any of your postings.

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Paukenguy,

You're entitled to your opinion. The Suzuki reference was a comparison to Dicterow, who could play circles around Preucil. I didn't state that Preucil plays like a Suzuki student. Most was a poor choice to take over the CO. He has not raised the artistic level of that great orchestra but has only contributed his inexperience and lack of depth and mediocre musicianship. Read the Plain Dealer reviews or see him in action on the podium. Again, the d/d reference was not directed towards Preucil's professional credentials. You miss my points. Anyway, I voluntarily removed my postings. "...no matter what they do or don't do off stage." Unbelievable! You too are making excuses for inexcusable behavior. If you were a female student who was violated by an authority figure, you would think and respond differently. You focus on a little comment I made, but cannot argue against the facts.

For what it's worth, I was talking with a colleague today who was a student of Pruecel at CIM during the 'episode'. He said the article (opinions aside) was/is 100% accurate.

Kris

I have been resisting the urge to contribute to this forum, but I guess here are my two cents: I am pretty familiar with the Cleveland scene, being a player in a top ten orchestra with several close colleagues who "know people" there, as well as having trained at CIM myself after Preucil joined the faculty. Unfortunately, I find much of the article to be true, and hardly exaggerated whatsoever. I know that g_sgarabotto's posts sound unreasonable and bitter, but they ring true to my ears.

I think Bill Preucil is an excellent violinist, but his reputation as a womanizer and "sleazy" teacher is hardly a secret. I respect the man, and understand the temptations that come with the admiration he receives, but he doesn't have a stellar reputation for resisting those temptations. The lawsuit is only surprising to me in that it did not come sooner.

The larger issue seems to be whether or not he has too much control of the orchestra. It is awfully ironic that his sister and brother-in-law were hired soon after he became CM. I cannot attest to their playing ability, but I have heard Lexi Preucil play several times, and in my opinion, she is not a good player. Honestly, I probably would barely pass her off as decent, and I have trouble believing that she would pass the first round of any screened audition for a major or mid-level orchestra on her own. But sub-work in many orchestras is not run "fairly," if by that you mean a screened audition that leads to an updated list every couple years. Many people get the work by knowing the concertmaster, principal player, or personnel manager.

I myself never auditioned for Cleveland, since the process seemed somewhat unfair, especially with no screen in any round. But my current orchestra also hears complaints of being unfair, and I was able to win my position without knowing anyone in the orchestra, starting in the prelims while others were invited to later rounds. So it's hard to say what fair is, exactly, and I can say that most orchestras (perhaps with the exception of Cleveland) will feel that their process, looking from the inside, is as fair as possible. Every group has to weigh the fairness of a screened audition against the comfort of knowing a person who will be a pleasant or familiar colleague. I will say that from my point of view, Cleveland does take the familiarity angle a bit far, and it seems that running a "fair" audition is not that high on their priority list.

Anyway, I've rambled for long enough, and perhaps I will be the victim of more stinging criticism for supporting this article. But since I've seen much of it for myself, I thought I'd chime in with my thoughts.

I just have to say that I lost an audition to Preucil's sister's neighbor for the Cleveland principal kazoo job, and I'm pissed. He was also looking at me during the audition (and I'm a lad).

On another note, if myauditions thinks they can get sued for people discussing someone on their board, they might want to upgrade their in house counsel.

quote:

Originally posted by kazoolad:
On another note, if myauditions thinks they can get sued for people discussing someone on their board, they might want to upgrade their in house counsel.

I dont think they can be sued, but I personally appreciate their effort in having this place free of attacks and innuendo. It's a real small classical world. Sure, I have heard everything in the article before, I think the article speaks for itself.

As far as the kazoo position, show a little cleavage next time. Since you say you are a lad, maybe some short shorts may help. Although I have heard it can get cold in Ohio...

MyAuditions,

The other white meat is actually a very clean animal. It gets a "dirty" reputation by movies and children's books.

I understand your fear of possible legal repercussions, so why don't you require all MyAudition users for their real identity, job position and employer? While you're at it, you should require headshots, DOB, SSN and mother's maiden names too. My postings were not contumacious to your rules. I used adjectives, not explitives. I merely commented on known facts and the truth, which may be interpreted as inflammatory. If you truly value my participation on this site, you should respect my opinions even if you find them disagreeable or controversial. Let's not forget that the source of the controversy stems from WP.

Ahh-he is the devil incarnate! I once auditioned for the position of Bill's personal dog walker, and his gaze lingered a little too long on my chest! I too am a lad. It made me very uncomfortable. Next time I will show some hairy chest. Is it true he eats babies? Please don't sue me, I am only a poor musician.

quote:

Originally posted by g_sgarabotto:

I understand your fear of possible legal repercussions, so why don't you require all MyAudition users for their real identity, job position and employer?

Actually I find that's a good point. I put my real name/instrument/real location/real job on my profile when I registered here, without giving it much thought. In the time since then, I have had a few instances where I wanted to post something but thought "hmm, do I really want to put this out there with my name on it?" Usually the answer was NO.