Hello all-

I am curious to know of any experiences anyone may have had regarding the upcoming Charlotte Principal Flute Auditions... Does anyone know of anyone who has been invited?
Several flutists,with substantial resumes, who are employed by orchestras, some of us with full-time 40 week jobs,myself amongst.. were given the "boot".
Just curious to know what others are experiencing with this audition process.

Thanks!

PiccGirl

Although you probably are aware of this already, you can contact the AFM audition complaint hotline and lodge a complaint. If you contact someone in Symphonic Services, they'll point you in the right direction.

Also, each orchestra determines for itself how their audition policies and procedures will operate, I would suggest obtaining a copy of their master agreement and see if they have any language dedicated to the selection of audition candidates (ask your local representatives about obtaining a contract).

Last but not least, there's also the Code of Ethical Practices for National and International Auditions adopted by ICSOM and the AFM which dictates general procedures.

Drew

Your post is a little dismaying, partly because this is my orchestra you're talking about, and partly because when I auditioned here, it was one of the fairest, most well-run auditions I'd ever taken part in.

To put up a post with "Scandal" in the title about a major orchestra is not very cool. Have you called the personnel manager to ask why you weren't invited? You can do that, you know.

There's never been any real hard & fast criteria for resume screening, but I can assure you Charlotte does things the way everyone else does. There's no scandal, no conspiracy, no "favored" candidates.

It's understandable that you might have questions about why you didn't get invited. But I think you should try to get them answered legitimatly before disparaging a professional organization on a public forum. And certainly before you lodge a complaint with the AF of M.

Sorry if this all sounds harsh. I just hear this sort of talk every time something like this happens in the trumpet world, too. Seriously, though, if you just communicate with the "powers that be" you will at least get your questions answered. Who knows, maybe you'll even get invited. Worth a try, right?

I too have heard of this scandal from a friend who has also been "booted". Fortunately, calls were made and her resume was then accepted. She also already has a job in a very fine orchestra and there is no reason at all that her resume should be rejected.

Anytime something like this happens, I wonder, A) do they have someone picked already? or B) are they just not going to hire someone to save money by using a sub for another year?

I remember fishy stuff happening at their violin auditions. While I did not take that myself, several of my fellow fiddle players had the same story.

Just remember, when you go for an audition, how you are treated in the process my directly reflect how they treat you after you win the job. I look at it like I am auditioning them!

I heard (from a very good source) there are some financial problems with this orchestra and that was the whole problem with one of the violin auditions in the past year or so.

But most orchestras have financial problems and many times that directly effects how the auditions are used. If there is not enough money to cover the positions, it is never shocking to see that no one wins.

You are probably better off not taking this one. Shall be very interesting to see who, if anyone, wins though. Wonder if it will be a local sub, or spouse of an orchetra player.....

Kudos to the both of you for having the guts to post anonymously and slander an ICSOM orchestra with such a winning combination of sour grapes and misinformation.

First of all, there are no set criteria for how orchestras determine who to invite. There's nothing in the Master Agreement for most orchestras about resume screening. As impressive as your resume must be, piccgirl, all I can tell you is that the dozens of people that WERE invited all must have had at least slightly more impressive ones. This isn't a slam on you, just a reality check. This is what the union would tell you, too.

The real issue here is that simply because you and some people you know didn't get invited you are led to believe that the whole process is tainted. This is at best a conceited viewpoint ("who could they get with a more impressive resume than mine?"). Worse, you call the Charlotte Symphony "unprofessional" for exercising some discernment in determining who to invite.

Here are some similarly "unprofessional" orchestras I didn't get invited to, even though I had subbed with the Indianapolis Symphony and had made finals for Chicago, Boston, St. Louis, San Fran, Dallas, and the President's Own when I applied:
The Cleveland Orchestra
Kennedy Center Opera
Metropolitan Opera

Was it dissapointing to be rejected by them? Yep. Did I post an anonymous diatribe condemning the professionalism and integrity of those organizations? No because I knew it wouldn't solve anything.

To then comment on the orchestras financial condition based on gossip is completely irresponsible, randomviolinist. This orchestra went on strike last year and won its demands for a contract. That's good news, folks, not bad news. Furthermore, all of the flute positions are full-time with salary and benefits, so it's not a "money-saving" issue.

As for fishiness with auditions here, all I can say is this is one of the only places I've auditioned where the screen is up THE WHOLE TIME, finals included. I knew NOBODY in this orchestra prior to auditioning here. I won fair and square. So will you, if you play the best audition.

Piccgirl, I would encourage you to come and play. If you are as good as you say you are, you have as good a shot as anyone else. I can assure you you'll be treated fairly and will be listened to with open ears. Let your playing prove itself, and put the bitterness aside.

My colleague and I have been following this thread for a few days now. We are both amused and annoyed all at the same time.
First of all, Charlotte Trumpet Man, I don't recall anyone saying your audition was fixed, so, we echo your comments, PiccGirl ... RELAX.
Secondly, the audition process nowadays is a big pile of shit. We all know it. PiccGirl and Random Violinist are merely stating what we all know to be true.
We've all been burned and it's really too bad that it has come to this.

My friend and I have to agree with the statements of all of you, with the exception of you, Mr White.
Although your comments and thoughts are well thought out and would under other circumstances probably be pretty accurate; here, however, they really do not apply.

As we see it, it sounds as though many of PiccGirls colleagues have been turned away from this upcoming audition with Charlotte BEFORE the resume deadline. THAT is the real issue here, wouldn't you agree?
I don't know about the rest of you, but that is just wrong. AND from what I have gleaned so far, the letter sent to the 'unqualified flute applicants' was somewhat inflammatory. I too have a number of friends/collagues who did not have their resumes accepted by Charlotte. When I heard this news, I actually laughed and said, 'who do they think they are? Berlin?"


Charlotte is a lovely city. And my colleague and I have both heard many good things about the orchestra. HOWEVER, they have made a serious error in the planning of this upcoming flute audition.
Perhaps they didn't anticipate the large number of interested/well qualified flutists to apply. Perhaps this was their solution.
Who knows?
We may never know ... but I will say, something has GOT to change in the audition process or we're all screwed.
Sincerely,
Two Irritated Musicians in California

The reason I'm taking this personally, Piccgirl, is that you are making false assertions about the professional integrity of an organization which I belong to. By extension, that is an insult to me, and certainly does affect me. I think other people on this board would back me up on this.

Your fundamental misunderstanding here is that Charlotte, or any other orchestra, has time and resources to hear ALL qualified candidates. You are no doubt qualified, but unfortunately it appears you were not initially deemed among the MOST qualified of those who applied, and were thus turned away.

Who knows what the reasons for this are? Maybe a bunch of flutists with ICSOM jobs in the US applied. Maybe they'll only be able to hear 20 candidates. Who knows?

Did you know that our hall is shared by 5 other community arts organizations, and having auditions means rental expense, not to mention paying the committee, paying the proctor and union steward, etc. We simply don't have the luxury that a Chicago Symphony has to hear 5 days worth of prelims. That would be great if we could, but we can't. So a cut-off has to be applied, and this time you got the short end of the stick.

Look, I know that this feels like a slap in the face, but there's really no need to take it personally. The big orchestras have more resources to listen to more candidates. Smaller ones like Charlotte have to make tough decisions like these. In not inviting you and your colleagues, they are not trying to "act like the New York Phil". They are trying to get as many of the BEST qualified candidates they can in the limited amount of time available.

Trying to put a "noble" spin on what you're doing by saying you "refuse to sit quietly on the sidelines" doesn't hold water. You're posting anonymously! What are you personally putting at stake by trashing the Charlotte Symphony? Nothing! It's simply a cheap shot.

Bottom line: you are making assertions that are unfounded and unwarranted based on your own heated feelings about the situation. I sympathize with you (honest! I do!) but to make the whole organization look bad is simply not a professional or even respectable thing to do.

Look at it this way: I highly doubt you would have made the same posts if your name was public on these forums!

Edie,

Let me make sure I understand your argument. You're saying that the criteria Charlotte appears to be applying to its resume screening for the principal flute job seems unreasonably stringent, correct? The comment of "who do they think they are, Berlin?" seems to indicate this. I hope I'm not misunderstanding you.

If this is the issue, then OK. Yeah, it seems like they should accept more people. If I got my resume rejected, I'd be pissed too.

But...I would not anonymously slam the ENTIRE organization as one that is doing things unfairly. PiccGirl may not have meant to do this, but that is what she has done. I've showed this thread to several colleagues in the orchestra and elsewhere, and they agree with me.
It was a cheap shot, and a bad way to deal with the situation.

I would be careful with the term "slander". Look it up in a dictionary. These opinions I have expressed are my own, and the fact that SEVERAL of my friends had the same story coming out two auditions ago is as disturbing as current situation.

Your audition with Charlotte is entirely different than the two that I am referring to. And frankly, comparing the fact you were not invited to KC opera Orch, Cleveland, and the Met is like comparing apples to oranges. No offence. I do have a few, very talented friends that currently play in Charlotte, and while your orchestra is a mid level one, it is no where near the level of even the KC Opera Orchestra. And subbing with an orchestra is a huge difference than becoming a full time member.

Getting turned down by Charlotte (for people with positions in ICSOM or ROPA orchestras already) is snotty. So get off your high horse and ask your management "what is up?" Is it a time, money, personnel or commitment issue. If you really care, how many applied. How many time slots are there. Money for the hall is irrelevant, I have played many an audition in a church or college. The cost issue is your weakest part of the argument. Just think about how much cash a symphony will dish out to find an executive director, for an ICSOM orch, the search fee is over $100,000.

My orchestra pulled something like this last year, and we raised Holy Hell over it. Your commitment is to find the best player. Period. If someone thinks they have the talent and time and money to take them to the audition, then it is the in their right to attend. I have been sent letters in the past (before I won my current job) and these orchestras would reccomend sending a tape so I would have an idea on if I was up to their standards. It was not required, but a very courteous thing to offer.

As far as my right to keep my identity private, that is my choice, and unless I exercise foul language, or threats, I am perfectly in my right to stay that way. I am not hiding, just keeping issues here, and only here. Since a few colleagues of mine have been harassed by my management for publicly expressing themselves, I choose (wisely) to stay random. So until I have the same authority that my managers have to freely express opinions, and be the one to determine what is “acceptable”, I will stay random. That, RWhite, is professional.

I haven't followed this since my initial post but wow, it's really gotten going hasn't it?.

RWhite, I don't think anyone here was slamming the entire Charlotte Symphony membership or you in any direct way. I think they were expressing their frustration with the audition process, which is determined by the audition committee, so if anyone should be upset it would be them.

However, I don't think the issue regarding the expense of the audition holds very much water. I know plenty of orchestras with bigger budgets than Charlotte that use off site locations for auditions. And they do that for a number of reasons ranging from expense to the ability to run multiple audition committees (so they can listen to a greater number of candidates).

But flame on, this is an interesting thread...

Drew

Thank you Drew. You always have wise and intuitive posts on this site.

If I can suggest, perhaps this thread could serve a useful purpose in establishing some policies and protocol regarding auditions today.
While it has done no good to anyone who has contacted the AFM, (they do not regulate auditions), an option might be for musicians working together to help the union to create not just guidelines, but a standard for reviewing resumes, etc.. that should be followed by all union orchestras? This would help, but of course not guarantee, true equal opportunity, and prevent the outright abusal of the audition process, i.e. CHARLOTTE SYMPHONY. (Sorry Mr. White.)

If anyone has any suggestions on how or who to contact at the AFM to discuss this, please write!

Anonymity is a benefit to encouraging people to speak frankly in this very political arena. Personally, playing in a non-union orchestra, outside of the United States, I would be jeapordizing my job, since taking auditions is not only frowned upon, it is very difficult to manuever. So I choose to exercise my RIGHT to privacy in this instance, but let me stress I have nothing to be ashamed of in my posts, which are merely a FACTUAL account, no infammatory emotion included, of recents events.
But I will voice a personal opinion that regardless of what the outcome of this current Charlotte "audition" may be, myself and a great number, and I emphasize this, great number of flute players will not be giving much credit to the outcome since these auditions are not being conducted on a fair playing field.
Sorry if this offends you Mr. White, but where there is a great deal of smoke, there is usually a fire. And if you are so concerned about the reputation of your orchestra, you should ask the management why they are NOT conducting a VALID search for the BEST candidate. Because having the best musician in the job... in the orchestra... will give your orchestra more credit, than defensive remarks on this post.

And, please, show these posts to as many Charlotte Symphony musicians and staff you can find, as a matter of fact, post it on the front door. Everyone should be aware of this discriminatory and biased behavior on the part of your audition comittee (If there even IS one).

Now you're coming up with productive ideas.

Sure, having union rules for resume screening is one I would endorse wholeheartedly. But the fact is, right now, orchestras have the right to determine how they want to go about things entirely on their own. That's what happened in this case, and you got the rejection letter because of it.

As to whether Charlotte has "abused" any process, I say: what process? We just determined that there are no hard and fast rules, just usual practices. I'll ask tomorrow in rehearsal (if I see the PM) how many people they expect to audition. I'll let you know what I find out. Somehow, I have a feeling there'll be plenty of candidates.

Again, the only thing I take issue with is the implication or outright assertion that the organization is doing things unfairly just because they didn't work out in your favor. LOTS of auditions yield dissapointed applicants. Charlotte is NOT unique in this case.

Let me just reiterate to anyone reading this discussion that Charlotte does indeed strive to hold a fair and equitable search for every full-time vacancy that arises. If you come play for us, you will get a fair shake.

Piccgirl, let me emphasize to you that I am wholly sympathetic to the frustration you are feeling. But you've now been invited, so I encourage you to come and audition. It's a good orchestra, the screen's up the whole time, you'll get a fair shake. I'll even buy you a beer as a peace offering! How about it?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RWhite,

Randomviolinist, I suppose the more accurate way to describe your assertions would be "libel" since it's written, not spoken. Sorry for the confusion. Here's what you said:

quote:

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I heard (from a very good source) there are some financial problems with this orchestra and that was the whole problem with one of the violin auditions in the past year or so.

But most orchestras have financial problems and many times that directly effects how the auditions are used. If there is not enough money to cover the positions, it is never shocking to see that no one wins.

You are probably better off not taking this one. Shall be very interesting to see who, if anyone, wins though. Wonder if it will be a local sub, or spouse of an orchetra player.....

---

The stuff about the financial situation is clearly gossip. Sure, we are having budget issues (like most groups), but the player's conditions have not been touched. These financial issues also have NOTHING to do with the audition for this position. We don't have any "local subs" in the section, nor is anybody's spouse in the running. I've spoken with the tenured members of the flute section, and neither of them is interested in the position. If they were, they could get a "by" to the finals, but as I said before - the screen will be up. My issue here is that you said the financial problems must be the reason things are happening the way they are, thus lending a "sinking ship" vibe to the whole proceedings. Not true, and very misleading to outsiders reading these posts.

quote:

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Getting turned down by Charlotte (for people with positions in ICSOM or ROPA orchestras already) is snotty

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Random, my understanding of the previous posts was that the people who got denied were NOT actually full-time ICSOM orchestra members, but had "comparable" gigs, and/or had made finals with "top 10" orchestras. My point was that those accomplishments, while impressive, won't necessarily get anyone invited anywhere. If anyone currently playing with an ICSOM orchestra full time did not get invited to Charlotte's audition, that would be very curious indeed. Is that what happened? I'd be interested in knowing if that is indeed the case, and would not hesitate to tell the orchestra committee about it. You could send me a private email about this if you'd like.

Again, specific information would do a lot more to help the cause being expressed here than general accusations of "fishiness". I understand no one wants to jeopardize their own reputations, but by doing this all anonymously it doesn't help any concrete information come to light.

I am afraid those of us who have been around long enough to have observed these situations know what is up.

Mr. White claims that only the very best resumes were granted an audition. I would lay good odds that someone already in the orchestra has a spouse/finacee/mistress that has NO resume but got invited. The same for someone's 'good friend from school.'

I realize that what I write is pure speculation, but it is based on the inevitability of this kind of thing happening when invitations are so few and demand is so high.

As for the Charlotte Symphony, I myself once took and won a sub list audition there. However, I was never invited to sub. At least one of the people I beat at the audition got most of the work. . .she was married to a Charlotte symphony member. That was some time ago, however.

I can remember an audition I took once where my resume had been rejected. WHen I got to the audition, everyone I talked to had had their resume rejected and had followed up. As it turned out, the job was fixed for the current sub. They were trying to spare us all a trip, I suppose. In any case, the orchestra folded so perhaps we were the lucky ones.

I think a public forum is the PERFECT place to let this kind of thing out. If the Charlotte Symphony is as fine an organization as it claims to be, none of this will affect it.

Here's some info that might help charlotte and other orchestras with this issue. The AFM maintains the following position:

It is the position of the American Federation of Musicians that no musicians should be denied a live audition based on written or taped resume.

I think HAT has touched on a much more common and sinister issue facing the industry about pseudo-fixed auditions. Nepotism is status quo for the industry (although I know some high profile folks that go out of their way to make sure it never happens).

Plus, we've only been talking about ICSOM orchestras here, what about the high level ROPA's? Grand Rapids and Richmond both pay equal or more than Charlotte pays so shouldn't any players from those orchestras be automatically accepted?

I also wouldn't say that Charlotte's financial conditions are gossip. After Random posted their comment I took a look at their financials myself. All you have to do is go look at the settlement bulletin, 990's, or the ICSOM charts to see that there are some noticeable problems.

They still have a hefty accumulated deficit, a very low Earned Income percentage, a very small endowment, and a great deal of funding comes from government sources (which are always tenuous at best).

the most recent settlement bulletin seems to have some hefty wage increases built into the end of the contract which are undoubtedly based on what the management and board believe they will be able to raise. but I have no idea what the contingency plans are if they fall short of their goals (and Charlotte's not alone in this case either, many orchestras have put off typical wage increases for several years based on the belief that things will improve).

So connecting the financial situation to the audition is plausible IF it's true that the committee is limiting candidates because of the actual expense of running the audition, but I commented on that earlier. And I do believe that RWhite mentioned the financial issue first as a reason for limiting the number of candidates (regarding the whole hall rental issue).

So I don't believe Random or anyone else can accurately be accused of slander, libel, defamation of character , etc.

Since I cover orchestra financial issues on a daily basis I can firmly say that I don't believe any orchestra's stated financial position without also seeing the current financial reports and cash flow statements. Alot of orchestras are worse off than they would have people to believe, certainly not just Charlotte.

Drew

Fair enough, Drew. I did mention the expense of running the audition first. However, my point was that it was a possible explanation for the seemingly large number of "don't bother" letters, as opposed to the audition being fixed for someone. Purely speculation on my part, and obviously not a convincing argument. It would have been better for me to not speculate at all, since I didn't screen any resumes.

HAT, I can't think of anyone in the group who has an ulterior motive to get someone they know in there. I am certainly aware that such things happen (I've taken lots and lots of auditions) but I don't think it's the case here. There are only two flutists listed on the regular sub-list, and neither are married or involved with anyone in the orchestra, as far as I know. Neither has played with the orchestra so far this season, either.

Again, to boil this discussion down to its essence:

Accusations that Charlotte has done anything unfair at this point are unsubstantiated. There could be a perfectly logical explanation, or it could indeed be possible that something fishy is going on. There's no proof right now of wrong doing, as there no rule saying a resume can't be rejected. As Drew pointed out, anyone can come play anyway - even if they were rejected.

Until we have the whole story it's not a good idea to form conspiracy theories. Instead, concerned parties should ask questions of the organization itself and insist on an answer.
That would be infinitely more productive.

As Drew makes clear with his financial analysis of the Charlotte Symphony, orchestras are pretty transparent entities - especially compared to your average coorporation. In order for an orchestra to do anything "fishy" or in violation of the AF of M guidelines, there would have to be a significant amount of collusion among the people involved. This does happen sometimes, as we all know. But my point in all of my posts has been that I doubt this is the case in Charlotte. They do things fairly here.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RWhite,

Actually, I would say that the transparency of the orchestra organization actually allows for much greater ability for anyone to abuse a system - manager and musician alike. Less transparency would lead to very well worded guidelines and past practices that can be referred to when in doubt.

Orchestra managers have a long history of not adopting AFM guidlines unless it's written directly into their CBA. I don't mean to be argumentative, I'm just clarifying the intent of my posts.

Another problem, also dealing with money, is that orchestras don't pay audition committee representative nearly as much as they should for the amount of work and effort they should be devoting to the endeavor. But that's another issue worthy of it's own thread.

Then we can all hash out the issue of how orchestra operations departments don't need to care so much about audition procedures because "there are so many players out there anyway". I see that mentality in organizations from the smallest right through the big budget groups. Traditional labor market mentality has no place in the arts.

Drew

Well, I got a chance to speak with the Personnel Manager, and got some facts about this audition. As they say on Marketplace, "Let's do the numbers":

Roughly 200 flutists have thusfar applied for this position. Because of the large number of applicants, it was decided some time ago that the resumes would be screened. Screening, while certainly not as fair as listening to every single applicant, is a procedure with plenty of precedent among US orchestras of all sizes - from the NY Phil to the Rhode Island Phil.

Resume screening was done by members of the audition committee, i.e. musicians in the orchestra. Not the personnel manager, not the music director, nor any member of the administration. Thus, financial considerations were certainly of no consequence.

Because of this screening process, only resumes meeting the standards the audition committee came up with would be invited. At this point more than 50 candidates have been invited to participate. There may be more, as the deadline has not yet passed.

The personnel manager reminded me, as I have reiterated on this board, that ALL rounds of the audition will be held behind a screen. The committee will have no knowledge of who they are listening to.

I hope that these facts speak for themselves.

I am completely empathic in regard to the frustration, difficulty, and intense feelings that surround the audition process for us musicians. I have certainly enjoyed this spirited debate, and invite anyone reading these boards to contact me directly if they'd like to discuss this further with me.

Bob White
robert_a_white@hotmail.com

wow, bury the hatchet and move on. there will be more auditions in the future.