A Philosophical discussion: I don't go on this site often, but the few times I have visited, I get just frustrated and perplexed; it makes me want to NOT participate or try; I mean if playing very well cannot succeed, why try? It seems there are so many threads on unfair auditions, or the SAME people getting the positions and no opportunities for others, men getting more jobs than women (older vs, younger) and everyone plays well but they don't get auditions...interestingly those that DO get the auditions have not shared their methodolgy of success...so it is up to everyone to just figure it out on their own; sad.

It brings to mind; I wonder why I should continue trying when it is so steeped in negativity? Can someone share some positive stories?

Just wondering? And yes, I have been around the block a few times and in this a number of years; sometimes more active than others. It seems to me it is all up to luck of the draw and being in the right place at the right time; and then being prepared to do the job. BUT, if I cannot demonstrate that I can DO the job; what is the purpose? So, I play well in my home to myself, or at a local event...but how does that give me any opportunity? AND if some very top players face the same ordeal, why should I ever suspect there is any hope for an unknown such as myself?

I have been in this long enough that the solos requested and excerpts are all old hat, and I can play those with various styles and inflections; but I have no idea what is desired. I can't even figure out the best way to practice anymore.

How does one get an opportunity these days???

If one has too much ability for a nonprofessional focus, and is inbetween situations for a professional situation; what CAN one do?

Maybe I am just in a slump of a mood at the moment, but after going to this site today, I just felt like forgetting it all and stuffing the instrument into the closet!

If you allow the hard parts to sound that way, you will be surpassed. If your intonation is not good on every single note, you can't make it. Your rhythm must not just be good, it must SOUND good. What? YOU may feel the rhythm. But, playing rhythmically means digging the natural accents out so that they come across to the listener. Same applies to musicality. You must not just feel moved by the music, you must move the listener. That takes phrase choreography.
I've spun my wheels before too. To break through that, face the ugly truth. Get out a video camera and microphone. You'll know if you're getting your points across or not.

Sounds like you're having a real downer of a day. Yes, it IS very discouraging for the younger players these days, as it's getting harder all the time to win a job and keep it. (In my day - I'm an old timer - it was 1000% easier.)

There are three things you have to do: get the job, do the job, and keep the job (i.e. tenure). The hardest of the three by far is to win the job in the first place; just doing the job is the easiest. There are thousands of fine players out there who can DO the job, but they can't GET the job. Getting tenure can be somewhat difficult, but is easier than winning the audition in the first place.

Auditions are frustrating because you are trying to second-guess what the committee and MD are looking for, which can vary from orchestra to orchestra. In a recital or concerto you have the luxury of pleasing yourself only; if a certain percentage of the audience didn't like your approach, or you miss a few notes, so what? It's not catastrophic. But at an audition, it is catastrophic.

For this reason, in an audition you have to suppress your individuality to a great degree and play to the center, which is unfortunate. It also doesn't hurt to do a bit of research: ask your friends who already play in the orchestra what the MD and committee typically go for. In most orchestras they reward a cold, accurate, soulless audition; others (unfortunately way to few) are smart enough to be able to look beyond the occasional error and see the big picture.

If you play well enough (and that's a big IF - you have to be totally honest about your own ability) and keep auditioning, you will eventually get a position somewhere. It's like a roulette wheel - although your chances of winning are only one in 36 for any individual spin, if you spin the wheel enough times your number will come up sooner or later.

quote:

I have been in this long enough that the solos requested and excerpts are all old hat, and I can play those with various styles and inflections; but I have no idea what is desired.

For me this notion might be part of your problem. Or I should say for myself in the part, feeling like this has led to problems at auditions.

I think after repeating excerpts god knows how many times it is very easy for us to feel as if they are "old hat", but if they come off as sounding like they are "old hat", I think you are going to find success at auditions hard to come by. I personally try to spread out the time I spend with excerpts so that when I come back to them, hopefully my personal growth as a musician always me to hear issues I did not notice before. Its amazing all the little issues you will hear once you have some distance from your excepts.

I really want to my excerpts to sound like they are solo pieces, fresh and alive. It's very easy to get bogged down in excerpt practice for auditions. I find mixing in music NOT on an audition list helps keep me a thinking, adjusting and growing musician all through the work up to an audition day.

Quote: "but I have no idea what is desired"....

When was your last lesson? And with whom?
I started really having success in auditions 3-4 years after finishing my studies. But I kept on having private lessons with people with bigger jobs than what I would be happy with. That's my tip.

I have a "rule" I give away to young musicians: Get a teacher who has (or has had) a bigger orchestra job than what you would be happy with before you're 16. Get a teacher with a top orchestra job before you're 20. And start taking private lessons with anyone else in a top orchestra before finishing your bachelor. Take lessons with musicians of your own and other instruments. (After all, the majority in the jury will always be from other instruments....)

Extra bonus: This will give you a good network as well... with one or the other gig while waiting.

After some years of auditioning, based on experience, I narrowed down the number of auditions drastically. My criteria were (ALL had to apply):
- I have heard the orchestra live in concert and really want to work there
- I have been in the city and really would like to live there
- I know someone in the orchestra quite well
- I'm sure, from my contacts in the orchestra, that they don't have a particular person in mind beforehand.

...waaaay too complicated. You just have to play well and smart. As someone said previously, you have to play it safe and stand out at the same time. I would recommend taking as many auditions as possible. The process has to become second nature because so many people go to auditions and freak out because of the process. As many as you can take to numb your senses to the scariness is the best advice I could give.

Aced-it,

What do you mean by "getting an opportunity"?

I agree with Eurobasoon that it is wise to continue to take lessons after completing school. I also started to have greater success with auditions after I began playing for someone with a bigger job than me.

Sharkey also has a good point about becoming accustomed to the audition process. I don't like to take "as many as possible," (too expensive, difficult to practice as much as necessary while making a living) but I do find it helpful to do at least a couple a year.

plus, i totally disagree that it is catastrophic to miss a note or two. i've been runner up for big five orchestras but have never played a perfect audition. my best advice is to be convinced by your musical choices, choose wisely when showing up (if you're a big, extroverted player, go to new york not cleveland), show that you know what else is going on in the orchestra besides your own part - and go for it. there is room for error - not a lot, of course, but a note or two isn't going to destroy your chances. the only exception to this i've found is in smaller orchestras where perhaps the committee is not comprised of consistently really great musicians...sometimes then missing a note will rule you out, because they're not listening to the bigger picture.

And what if you are auditioning for Cleveland??
Soft, subtle?

Well, I am glad this brought up some discussion. Interestingly, I am and have done each and every suggestion offered and I do think what people are saying applies.

I do try to approach it with a fresh approach, usually this takes putting stuff away for a while and pulling it out again and it is easier to see it in a different light.

It really comes down to more people available than jobs for them! But on the other hand, if it has gotten to the point that 5 or 6 absolutely able folks are in a final, and have the correct experience, and the only guy advanced is the one that sort of has the most PR behind him, at the moment, that is curious to me.

Actually, to share a bit more and to see how it turns the discussion, understand that I was heavily involved in auditioning in the 80's. I play a wind instrument. I got to the point that I was in a few finals for good level orchestras at that point, but I did have to support myself and pay back student loans, a1so I was required by life and cirumstances to choose to work another job and play the instrument on the side. This allowed for part time situations and some very unique experiences over the years; but not very consistent or rewarding with respect to quality. So I can't say that I was out of it all of this time, just not in it for full time situations or as free to move about. At this point, personal circumstances have miraculously changed such that financially I can support myself without having to work a non-musical job. So I decided I am sort of tired of mostly being my own audience of one in my home:-) I do spend time now using the down time to improve improve improve. However, I would also like to be afforded the opportunity to play works for a large orchestra. A lot of the works played by even better community organizations; I have now played several times in the past since there is a sort of limit on the level of music that is typically attempted in such situations. (Though these are certainly good situations to interact with others and meet people, etc.) Pick up gigs are the typical just getting together with a totally strange mix (the mix I mean, not the players...) thrown together and sometimes playing the piece the first time at the concert; so it is more of a sight reading concert, plus certainly playing with different sets of players doesn't allow for a lot of development of cohesive ensemble muscianship. I also do chamber music and small ensembles of course, which allows more challange; but again; I have done it long enough that there is sort of that glass ceiling towards doing anything more challanging...be it lack of people's time, life intruding on rehearsals, or just people not wishing to put in that much time to produce the more difficult.

What I mean by opportunity, is what the one writer referred to, the getting in part. I agree once you are in, it is pretty much doing what we know and are trained to do and dealing with the personality and nature of the ensemble.

I have done the additional lesson thing; but I really find that my best teacher right now is me hearing me on recording. I listen to the recording as if I were listening to another person as a student, and I HAVE caught areas of improvement and was able to correct those and also test to see if I actually did make the correction and to what degree. Unfortunately, the available teachers in my area either are not really as far along as I am (remember I said in MY AREA) or they are essentially my competitors; they are looking for the same jobs! So they aren't that willing to help me possibly win a job they want; it tends to be more them just listening and not saying much...also some of them have asked why I would want lessons as I am already a fine player...not saying this to be egotistic but rather to indicate that is the sort of response...or there are also some teachers that just don't want to bother with students beyond about 35 because they assume I would have "made" it by now if I was going to...not realizing that I might actually do better than a younger person in some cases because I DO have the finances to support the habbit so to speak now...not dependent on parents:-)...thus why I went to the recording method; not to mention that I can do that at any time. For me, at this stage, this has really been the best help. I can, of course, also let someone listen and critique the recordings as well...and somehow that gets more feedback...I guess because a recording is sort of anonymous to the listener. I can also compare how I play something over time as a trend or more easily find any repetitive errors I make. And they do creep in at times!

I was fortunate to have studied with several top players and a good mix through the years; to think about it most are deceased by now! So I really have done the preparatory things suggested. (I am in my 40's FYI)

I honestly feel that I play better now than ever. There is never perfect. I also can play one excerpt in several ways, how do you want it? In part because I made this a practice through the years. I also know that, fortunately, I do play, how do I put it, different enough to not just sound like everyone in the crowd. I could play straight staccato or do you want individual dynamics within those staccato notes:-) I am being silly now a bit, but point I am making is that this is essentially a situation where I was in the learning group with individuals now holding full time jobs, and I suspect we play as well as each other because I have kept at it and we have the same basics; yet since they were able to do it full time through the years, they have their positions; and since I am going BACK to full time; I am at the base of the stack as far as working to get in. My case really wasn't giving up because I wasn't making it, but financially, I had to make enough to support myself entirely so I HAD to accept another choice for that time. AND I still kept up the playing despite that.

So, in getting back into the fray; I have noticed a few differences. One is the use of CDs as a preliminary preaudition in a lot of cases. Back then; if your CV got you in the door, everyone got at least 5 minutes live:-) I will also share that I am a woman, and back then; on my instrument and I was TOLD as much, women didn't play that instrument in most orchestras. (Thankfully that has improved some.) So, there was a chance, maybe a FAR chance, but a chance that everyone could at least make it to the finals. Yes there were still preselects and such, but you might at least get heard. But now I see good players being advanced to final rounds and the rest having to send in recordings. So the haves keep having and the have nots can't get. Also, people got a good job, they STAYED there and build upon that so they weren't even out there rotating positions among themselves!!! I didn't have to worry so much that I might be competing with players now holding that same position in another orchestra; it was people trying to work up or new people. Then, it used to be, in most cases; that you were hired off of that audition! Now, you do the audition, it seems, and that just leads to yet another hoop with a trial week or whatever playing with the group! Mind you, for those top players, the trial is "just" the next step, not the end of a long process. While they have certainly earned a right to not be set a cattle call level; it seems to be turning into a situation where the same few people trade around the openings! Again, when I hear of someone new making it past eneryone else, I ultimately hear they had played with the group as a sub, were a student or friend of a player, in other words it REALLY isn't like they walked in off the street and had this success. So, when it might come between me and them, all being equal, they would have the leg up at the subjective end. (I have certainly been on the receiving end of this situation also, so it is there.) I am an unknown, they are a known quantity; that is sort of human nature. Maybe they even had the advantage because the veterans auditioning knew this person would not be out to compete for THEIR job. (i.e. we will call it a team player) Also, I have also done some auditions really well, and perhaps was seen as almost a threat to the existing and didn't get it for THAT reason, so even playing really well can work against it seems. (One way I also know this is because as life would have it, as years go by, some of these same people I met later in life and they actually told me that is how they felt about my playing before they "knew" me and knew that was not my objective! I was surprised to learn that I had thought all of the time I must not have been up to par somehow when in truth they were afraid I played better than them!!! Of course to hear this, my internal thoughts are, WOW!)

Then, we all know there is something we can critic in EVERYONE. SO when someone plays well, there is always someone that will comment on ONE note out of how many thousands of correct ones in a performance!

So, my issue is that I HAVE done all of the prep as per suggested and continue in such as we all have to do, I do seem to do the same as those that have "made" it, critic myself objectively against the standard the current top players present, and...well...I just can't figure out how I should EVEN be practicing differently to "keep the faith" so to speak when I am on the outside looking in. Again, tired of just having my pets as an audience!

The other comment, as far as differences noticed; a more uniformity of sound and technique has resulted than used to be. There used to be more regional differences in players. Now they all do just as mentioned, play to the center. A lot of people sound just alike. Consequently, the sound of some of the orchestras have also gone more to the center; which I personally think is a loss.

So far, my aim in preparing has been attention to accurate rhythm and timing, attention to playing exact dynamics and other written directions in the mucic, missing notes is does not happen that often once I learn a piece (usually when I just plain make a mistake!...but then what? Obviously there is SOMETHING extra that someone that consistently is placed at the top at many auditions is doing that the rest of us are not? ORRR is it really that THEY are? Is it really that committees are buying into the PR that preceeds those players? AND as a person not able to be playing all of the time with high level players; perhaps part of what is missing is just the innate nature for ones playing to improve the more often one plays with such? So that is the opportunity, if i can't break into that opportunity, I can't practice at home to get THAT? Also, playing all of the time with mediocre tends to un-improve ones playing...and that is a battle I also fight.

Again, just more musings to see what others comment and thanks to those that did comment, interesting.

Are the reasons for my frustration now more apparent? too bad they don't have a show called, "So you think you are an orechestra player"; wouldn't THAT be a good reality show!
I just can't figure out how and where to fit into the picture.

What the heck is the "PR of players" of which you're speaking? Everyone still has to get through the screened process. In most cases, even if one is advanced to the semi's it's still behind a screen. How do you rationalize that scenario? I think you're doing way to much thinking and not enough of the process.

Generally everyone must submit a cv or application, EVEN and this must be approved before the audition takes place; therefore a player's PR could play a part at THAT point in the case of two players of equal experience. It could also come into play at the point of final selection just as it could in any job. Also often contracts will allow entry of invited players into a higher round, higher than semi-finals; and this may not be behind a screen. In fact, some seem to have it so they could ask for a specific player if desired; essentially. I assume you know that since you seem so aware; so I am simply reminding.

Also, there ARE instances where the committee does actually know who is auditioning behind the screen, sorry to tell you...how do I know; I have been thanked by name before...behind a screen...imagine THAT! AND it has happened on more than one occasion...(How you ask? I don't know, maybe by conclusion on the part of the listeners based on the number auditioning, maybe it is because my playing style was faniliar to them...I don't know, I never asked them, just found it interesting at the times it happened...)

I am analyzing nothing, one cannot analyze how another thinks; just making free and thoughtful comments to see what others would say. I rarely do such postings because in the end someone ALWAYS has to jump in and say some sort of personal attack on the poster, maybe I will not post further because I do not wish further negativity.

I often wonder, why is it when one posts there is always SOMEONE that has to make a negative personal comment about the poster when they have no basis from which to make that comment? I am certain you do NOT know me, nor do you know the time or effort I put forth; at least enough to advise me how much I need to participate in the process as you call it. If you are a highly successful soloist level player in a major organization, who has held that position for 15 years or more successfully, PLEASE, feel free to offer me further advice along the line of how I could be at your same level...but I kind of doubt that, or you wouldn't have time to post here, and you would be in the artist area? So thank you for insulting me, THIS is the very thing I find distasteful in music...why can't we be more positive and encouraging to each other, negative put downs and nit picking ONLY serve to make the nit picker feel better...and guess what? MOST people will not take heed to that sort of thing as they know from whence it came! So before you jump on me, please YOU get on with your own process and let me mind my own thoughts...to which you are free to comment on; but don't attack ME and my way of approaching things which you cannot determine from what I wrote. I was simply trying to stimualte a discussion. As you will recall, I started out asking why it is always SOOO negative in audition discussions...you just proved the point and we came full circle....I would like to see some positive approaches...comments...thoughts...something uplifting to help face the deal...

If you did not understand or disagreed with the PR comment above, you could have simply stated that, or asked me why I said that. You did not have to go further and criticize me, now did you? I would say you were analyzing ME too much??? I was simply musing on the subject freely...I am permitted that I believe...Did I ASK you to analyze my posts and thought process?? AND if so, are you trained to do so?

If not, please refrain from those sorts of comments, I am simply thowing out thoughts...for comment on those thoughts...for entertainment and fun and lightheartedness...

This post is coming from a 41 year old female, I was fortunate to win a job last year, I did not know anyone on the panel or in the orchestra. I had taken many auditions before, some more successful than others, never had my age come into question, or my gender. I think that the reason why it might seem like a personal attack is on you, is that your comments are inflamitory. You are seriously suggesting that every audition you taken is rigged, with the panel knowing who is behind a screen, and that they have access to resumes in advance. I have been on several panels in my time, and all a panel is looking for is someone who can do the job. But, what does that mean? It means at the most basic level, the ability to play what the composer is asking of you. However that is no way the only criteria. Whether you be a chamber, soloist or orchestral player, you need to be able to communicate to your audience. I actually think that this is the number one thing that is lacking in many players auditions (even though they may communicate very well in a job situation). Someone previously mentioned Phrase Choreography, but I feel that even though this needs to happen along with the obvious, dynamnics and rhythm (all absolutly essential), you cannot win a job without having a beautiful sound and the ability to say something. I sometimes joke to students about how I would love to put in a tune like Amazing Grace on an audition list. Sounds crazy, it is so simple, and yet only the best players could really move their audience with something so simple.
Good luck with your goals Aced-it, I wish you well, and the funny thing is you have this all backwards - I've never been on a panel that didn't want everyone to play well. Actually, just before each person is about to play, they are all hoping that this will be the one they have been looking for. Who knows, next time it might be your turn...

Wow Aced-it, that was probably the longest posts I ever saw on these forums.

Please, don't sit there in front of your computer and complain to hundreds of people you don't know. Call some musician colleagues (we are all colleagues, not competitors!!), go downtown and take some beers. Celebrate that you love music and love your instruments!

I like fluffy bunnies and kittys!!!

Hows that for a happy post?

Frosty the freelancer

um, who insulted whom? i didn't see anyone attacking the poster, just stating their opinions. maybe i'm just blind

I was commenting on what OTHERS have said is going on in auditions...from this site...so please...my issue was that when I go to read about the audition process, there are lots of negative comments observations from others which in turn discurages me. i.e. "qualified flute players not getting invited to an audition" and that sort of thing; no, I do not play flute even.

Point I think is, good players can get an audition or they may not. Depends if the way one plays that time is what they want or they think they want.

Never said anyone attacked me in that sense, I gave the example in the prior post. Appropriate to give an alternative view but inappropriate to make judgements of my own when it is just an editorial type of writing...free thought...

I had just read a bunch of the comments on the site, and a LOT of them were of a complaining nature; or the implication that something was not correct going on...that was not my thought. I suspect most are "fair" in terms of those granting the audition; just as in school when given a test, the teacher ALWAYS thinks it is fair; but often the students do not. Could be due to the teacher or the students misperception. The teacher, for example could feel they covered everything and made it all clear. That the questions were interperted as they intended. The students, however, could have either not been prepared or studied the wrong thing or perhaps did not understand what was taught or maybe the teacher forgot to go over some topic. I wonder how many organizations send out an auditon satisfaction form after an audition to get feedback to see how their process is perceived? This might be something that could be introduced and perhaps improve the process. It could be filled out at various stages, BEFORE results are given. Not reviewed until after the conclusion. An example, it might be a fully fairly RUN audition as far as those listening; but what if the warmup rooms were advesely cold or hot and that affected tuning once entering the room? Or insrument performance? The auditionee would be disturbed by that, but the committee may never know...It is a fair audition...or IS it?

It is all in the perception. A for example, I have participated as a new applicant for a performance based professional license. In later years, I was the examiner for the same. As an applicant, it was tedious, stressful, difficult to determine what was wanted, seemed like an un-needed hoop; and unfair to applicants from out of the locale. There were classes offered on how to pass the exam. I did pass. However, as an examiner, it seemed perfectly fair to me :-) With many years experience, the procedures seemed easy. However, that doesn't mean that because it seemed unfair and was difficult for me as an applicant that I wasn't competent to do the work. A certain number of prepaired individuals I am sure failed just from the enviroment and fatigue.

So, even here, it is sort of the same. Those having been through the process sucessfully view it as fair and a great way to evaluate entry level. Those trying to get there view it more critically, interesting, isn't it?

Again, it is funny to me that in most other professions, skills are easily trasferrable from one organization to another. In this one, even if someone is performing in a similar level organization, the skills are not directly transferrable. All just interesting things.

Again, I am just trying to bring some thoughts up for discussion. AND when I bring up a point, it might not be an opinion I hold personally, but one that I have read others express and I am bringing the point forward to discuss to see what people say.

To raise another point...Has anyone seen it where the audition list is extensive, and the auditionees play the list better than players on the committee? What if it is for a second player and the auditionee plays better than the principal listening....hmmmm...

Theorectically, if someone is hired as a substitute/temporary player and actually plays satisfactorily several times with an orchestra; it would reason that they are qualified and have whatever style the orchestra wants by the mere fact that they have already done so. So why is it that person would be found unqualified through an audition process?

Again, just raising points...for discussion...I am just curious of thoughts, just as if I were sitting in the living room discussing it among friends.

Oh another thought, hearing is in the ear of the beholder in many situations. I have seen remarks come back from different jurists that conflict. Just a for example to explain: One person commenting not enough dynamic contrast, another writing great dynamic contrast. hmmmm....

OMG...

I was told recently to 'change the things I can change and not worry about the things I can't' - very wise advice. We can only do the work and play the best we can on any given day so why complicate things by worrying excessively? Life isn't fair and the most deserving don't always win/become rich etc - Paris Hilton is a great example of this!! Auditions are a necessary evil and no matter how much we procrastinate and stomp our feet they ain't gonna change. Let's just do the work. Talking of which I have an audition in 3 weeks - better go practise!!!