Hi,

Does anyone know anything about/have any experience with this orchestra in Valencia?

They have many openings now, and I would love more information before investing in an audition there.

What level of orchestra are they, how is it to work there, etc? Any info would be so greatly appreciated. Thanks so much!

-CeciliaB

I had a friend who was there for a year and quit and moved back to NYC...she hated it...

Wow there's a ringing endorsement.

As a member of the orchestra I can tell you it's all about choices. If you are interested in a very good orchestra with very good pay this might work for you, but you can not come to this orchestra expecting the same kind of organization found in other institutions. There are many fine young and older players here who don't hate it and enjoy the life style.

The work is very up and down, sometimes it's very slow and some times it's very busy. But in the times it's most busy you are working with Conductors like Maazel and Mehta.

The reason for so many openings currently is for the most part because of chairs that were never filled or people that were not tenured. And yes, in a few cases there are some that have left.

The money here is good. It's easy to find a very nice place to live on what the orchestra pays.

I too have found experiences here in general to be very frustrating. But the musical level is high and frankly I can not afford to be super picky about where I can find a well paid position.

Hope this helps.

-Alex Orfaly

As a former member of the orchestra (I played there during the first season and then accepted a position in the U.S.), I can second much of what Alex has shared, and I can also appreciate the sentiment drfiddla shared from his/her friend.

Without question, the group plays at an extremely high level. It helps that everyone was just hired. There are some sections that are stronger than others but on the whole, you're not going to find dead wood anywhere in that ensemble. Few, if any, orchestras are able to say that. You're playing great repertoire with very good conductors. The halls are very good. The guest artists are amazing.

Valencia is a nice place to live. There's plenty to do, the weather is great, and the cost of living is extremely reasonable given your salary.

And given how poorly the dollar is doing, the job pays extremely well if you're coming from the U.S. or Canada. A section position that would've been paying $35K seven or eight years ago is now paying nearly $70K.

Those are the good things. But not everything is good.

The administration is poorly organized, and often leaves the musicians in the dark on matters that affect them. There is no collective bargaining agreement in place, so relations between the orchestra and management operate on good faith and little else. Certain elements of management have a track record of being dishonest and lazy, which goes a long way to destroy that good faith. Things that would routinely get handled in other orchestras will drag on and on and on there. Passing the buck seems to be a way of life for many people (not all) in the office.

While hardly universal, there is a certain negative vibe that exists among some Spanish musicians in the group (and administrators) towards the foreign musicians. It's worth mentioning that many Spanish musicians auditioned for this orchestra and very few were actually hired. Even among those who report on and cover the orchestra, there is an impression created at times that this an orchestra filled with a bunch of foreign children who are taking good jobs away from Spanish musicians (many of whom don't play anywhere near the level of those hired, but let's not digress...). That this whole thing is the pet project of some politicians doesn't always help matters in terms of public opinion.

If you were in North America, I would be extremely hesitant to recommend that you spend upwards of $1000-1500 on travel and lodging to play an audition in Valencia for a committee that has rarely found itself able to agree on a course of action. Many of these vacancies are not new, especially in the string sections. Most are over a year old.

If you were in Europe, the cost to attend is probably no more than attending another audition in Europe. There, I might say go for it. But go for it with open eyes, knowing that this is a work in progress, and many things you have seen in other orchestras cannot be taken for granted in Valencia.

As Alex said, the job there is about choices. If you can block all the garbage out and just focus on the music, you'll love it. The question is how much of the garbage you're willing to put up with - and in that regard, everyone draws the line in a different place.

Hope that helps.

I agree mostly with what the crazy chicken has said and would add two things.

Miles are a great way to fly to Europe for auditions. I've done it twice.

As far as the audition committees go here, there could be much discussion on this point. I think it is safe to leave it at, all final decisions are that of Lorin Maazel.

On the subject of miles. USAIRWAYS just announced it is going to stop its mileage program and after August 6th or so, you will have to pay $35 per ticket to retrieve miles you already have. I hope all the other airlines aren't following along with this. The baggage fee has caught on with many already.

Thanks so much for your time in replying, especially Paukenguy and "Crazy Chicken" (is that what living in Valencia did to you? ;-) Pardon the fowl joke...) for your really helpful and informative answers.

This from a communique at Lorin Maazel's website, posted July 2, 2008. "In order to devote more time to the project, Mr. Maazel announces today that he regrets not being able to extend past the 2008-09 season his contract as Music Director of the Palau de les Arts Opera House in Valencia, Spain." Supposedly, because "[he] will launch an annual three-week festival [in 2009] in Castleton, Virginia, devoted to chamber opera, concerts and recitals, master classes for conductors, with top artists... " and he needs time to devote to the project. An annual three-week project requires so much time that he has to abandon a music directorship? No kidding.

As a possible successor, there's speculation about Enrique García Asensio, a native Valencian, who, while undoubtedly a plus to those who regard the Palau as not sufficiently Spanish, is no Maazel... Whoever comes next, things are changing over there, and we'll see in what direction.

Just things to consider if one is to audition.

Hello,
Yes, the news Flaky Pastry posted is correct. But, by no means is it the end of the story. Mr. Maazel made a very public announcement due to a THREE WEEK festival. The management contends here that they are still very much in talks with Maazel. As we like to say in an opera house, "it's not over till the fat lady sings".

As far as Mr. Asensio goes, anybody who knows this opera house and the level of the artists they bring in, in general, should be able to come to a safe judgment about his prospects here as a future music director.

I have never worked in the orchestra and therefore apologize if my comments, vilified in some earlier and unrelated forum posts, are off the mark. I'm doing my best. So here goes:

I guess I assumed that Maazel's statement via his website was the fat lady singing! Paukenguy says otherwise, OK. Yes, saying that obligations around a three-week summer festival are such that one has to leave a music directorship sounds like a lame excuse. Let's wait and see if this is the final word.

I have been told firsthand that two cellists in the Valencia orchestra were fired (or told "never to return again") this spring on the spot because they laughed or giggled during a rehearsal of Mr. Maazel's opera 1984 and he saw that. (I have worked with the Maestro and it's my humble opinion that, while magnificently talented, he is not the most secure.) He saw injury in that, what with the opera very poorly received at its world premiere in London several years back, and retaliated against the musicians in front of everyone. They had to apologize, the thing dragged on for a little while until they were finally reinstated, forgiven, what have you. Again, this comes firsthand from someone in the band. In my humble opinion, I play in a big orchestra and where I work you can laugh, it's highly unprofessional, but you wouldn't get fired or threatened with same on the spot, the first time you do it. Not even by the music director. No way.

This brings us to the point of working conditions and such. It is my understanding that tenure as such, at least from the North American perspective, does not exist in Valencia. Jobs are supposedly not too secure. As there is no bargaining agreement and few things are down on paper, many things hang in a precarious balance, as does one's employment. Being liked by who matters seems to be the most important.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Flaky Pastry,

That is not totally correct,

There was an unfortunate incident with two cellists here in the FALL. (so much for first hand info). But, even though a very odd scene it was resolved and to all accounts had much more to do with outside extreme circumstance. (the hall being flooded and sets and equipment being ruined.) That being said, nobody is perfect.

It’s seems for this point of view that you are just trying to stir the muck with something that ultimately was resolved with nobody getting hurt. And that had nothing to do with who is liked and disliked.


And yes there is Tenure here. It's just defined by Spanish Law. The statement about tenure here is not exactly correct.

Maestro Maazel clearly has his reasons for posting this statement. Lets just see what comes of it.

From what I know of my former employer, conditions for which one can be dismissed and who is responsible for doing the dismissing are ill-defined, if they are even defined at all. Much of this stems from, as Flaky points out, the lack of any kind of CBA to protect the musicians.

Unless the orchestra has a bargaining agreement in place now, all the "tenured" musicians have are indefinite contracts. From what I understand, all that guarantees an employee in Spain is severance pay based on length of service should an employer decide to terminate you. I believe that it's 45 days of salary for each year of service, unless it's for what is considered an objective reason (say, musical inadequacy), in which case the employer only owes 20 days of salary per year (up to one year's salary).

In any case, it's far from a guarantee that you cannot be terminated. There are zero restrictions on whether you can be terminated and why, but for what might be illegal under Spanish law. And since everyone is relatively new, the cost of termination is minimal.

As best anyone knows, the tenure and probationary committee is Maazel and nobody but. I don't believe there are policies in place that grant musicians the right to formal review or progress updates, as is commonplace in North American orchestras. There certainly weren't when I worked there. There are no policies that require the "committee" (dare I even call him that) to provide any kind of rationale for his decisions, nor is there any kind of formalized appellate process available to the musicians should they have a grievance. When previously asked for such information by musicians, the music director simply ignored the requests. Colleagues won't stand up for one another because everyone is concerned about preserving their own behinds.

In fairness to Flaky, I'm not sure it's muck-stirring if he's just repeating the same stuff that's being printed in Spanish newspapers (there's a chair-tossing incident involving Maazel that's also been discussed by the papers). Clearly, there are musicians in the orchestra who are willing to talk to the press off the record. Some in the Palau may be sad to see Maazel depart, but based on what people will say to reporters, it's certainly not all of them. And once again, most of those same articles feel compelled to point out that while it's the best orchestra in Spain, most of the Palau musicians aren't Spanish.

Certainly one would think the Palau would want to pursue a high-profile replacement, should they be unable to woo Maazel back. Then again, when you have a situation in which a cultural project is a political chew toy, I would never underestimate the power of politicians to get involved and muck it all up. Enrique Garcia Asensio is perhaps not a household name, but he indeed is Valencian. He'll get bonus points for that among some, to be sure.

The stage breaks, the building floods, the orchestra hall had to be completely rebuilt, and now the music director wants out, all in under two calendar years. Perhaps its bad luck. Or maybe it's just a sign of managerial and operational incompetence. Having seen the place operate firsthand, let's just say I'm not putting my twenty bucks on bad luck.

And for the record, none of this should be taken as a shot at the musicians. On the whole it's an extremely talented and personable bunch and they are asked to put up with more garbage than any orchestra should ever have to deal with.

Wow El Pollo continuance of the muck, is not surprising to me at all.

As I said in my first statement, you cannot compare this place in anyway to how an American orchestra is run. And for the most part, that is not a good thing.

It's funny, I worked in an Orchestra in the US where I saw a chair go flying of the stage via the music director. So lets just put this on one conductor for loosing his temper.

The Palau has had a great deal of bad luck. There have been many that have wanted to see the Palau fail. There has been a lack of competence in other cases. But the shows have continued and the pay checks have never stoped.

There are some here, that clearly want to take this chance to talk to the press and make things look bad for Maazel, mainly I would think for personal gains.

Again, as far as the muck goes, Mr. Asensio is from Valencian. We will see what impact that has on the short list for a new music director at the Palau, if it comes to that.

And yes, I have no problems saying, I will defend this place, bad and good for as long as I am here. This orchestra was hand picked by its conductor. That is not normal. There are many here whom after only 2 years have seem to forgotten that fact and seem to have a great sense of entitlement.

A CBA is in the works here, it's just a very long and hard process. It’s really too bad there was not one to start with. But we are sorting it out, step by step.

I would like to also add, there has been a lot of ill will cast upon the Palau due to jealousy. And for the most part it’s really sad, because now that some of us are here, people want to try to hurt our prospects.

There has been jealousy from:

People that were not invited to the audition in the first place.

Locals not being asked to sub in the orchestra.

Locals being asked to sub.

Spouses being asked to sub.

Spouses not being asked to sub.

People that decided that the level organization was not to their liking and left for much lower paying jobs.

Nationalistic pride from all parts.

Jealousy and Frustrations from people on the management that have not been treated well by the management and then were fired for questionable reasons.

And I am sure more can be added to the list.

I think it’s hard to say what will happen here in the next five years, clearly for those of us here we are hoping for the best. Since there is a fine orchestra here, we hope that we will still be able to attract fine players to our auditions. If this is not going to be possible, due to jealousy and frustrations, it will really be a shame.

I will second everything Paukenguy says.

What the Palau has tried to do looked great on paper, and even in execution it's been pretty darn good (at least the musical part, what the audience sees). If there is one thing that could ultimately damage that organization more than anything, it's the seemingly pervasive jealousy that exists in Spain that the orchestra widely recognized as the best in the country after just two years is largely made up of foreign-born musicians.

That bitterness comes from some in the press, some in the administration, and even some in the orchestra, who would rather just set their marginally-talented spouses/friends/significant others up with work, even at the expense of artistic quality.

Lexmark,

I am not quite too sure how one could take from my past posts that "I am extremely happy here". I share all of the same frustrations as friends and colleagues. I too have been involved in past and up coming auditions and plan to continue.

Yes some people have left. Most of the people who left are ones that where not given tenure, there have been a few that left to no job. There are only 2 instances I am personally aware of where people have left for other jobs. There are many big talkers, at the end of the day it comes down to who can win another job and that goes for myself as well.

Find me an orchestra in the world were A) somebody does not want to leave and B) where musicians don't complain.

Most of the real negative statements that have been made here, have not been made by current or past members of the orchestra. It's just what people have heard 1st hand or 2nd hand. I don't really think these people are making these statements to be helpful to others it's more like musicians having fun with gossip of other musicians complaints.

With all that being said, as I said before it's all about choices. And I stand by that for it was the most honest and accurate statement I could find.


For me the question is very simple how much do you need a job? I played in a very under paid American orchestra for 5 years. With a solid contract and a normal work schedule. And I can easily tell you I would take this life over that one any day, struggling month to month just to pay the bills. Could things be much better here? clearly. But in many ways its better then many other jobs one could have even in the USA.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Paukenguy,

I guess this is one of those threads where you gotta wonder if you should just shut up, because you know there is going to be a strong rebuttal to your posts. Against my best judgment, I am posting again.

I have gotten involved in this topic because I felt that some of the statements were generally defensive and overly emotional. While I am akin to feeling that way myself at times, I am not sure that is what CeciliaB wanted to know.

I myself auditioned in Europe and worked in an orchestra that has a big name for two seasons, and yet it didn't work for me. I got tenure, I got along with everyone, but living there was the way it was and I felt like I should leave once I got a job in an orchestra in the US, and I did. (I should add, I am not American and this was hardly the first or biggest culture shock of my life, oh no.)

My point is, I am trying to be helpful here. Moving abroad to work is a huge deal. It is extremely difficult on so many levels. I had a picture-perfect situation, I was in a fine orchestra with very good administration for the most part, clear rules, strong job security, and yet it was quite hard. We have to present a correct picture to people. It does not come down to how easily one can pay the bills. Just because something is better that something else does not make it right. Just because people throw chairs in other orchestras does not make it OK. Just because no one ultimately got hurt in an incident where a minor disciplinary issue became grounds for dismissal does not make it acceptable.

We should not compare or bang the table with our fist, but talk about the facts. And those are, things such as cost of living vs. pay, music director's power and attitude, the quality of guest artists and conductors, the management, atmosphere and morale in the orchestra, job security and the tenure process, the schedule, city life and the cost of traveling home, the pension plan, things of such nature. That helps. That is the kind of information that a prospective auditioner needs. Just my two cents.

How rare the thread is when people disagree, and yet everyone is right.

Lexmark is right in that things at the Palau are very unsettled. One would think that they should get there eventually. When exactly that will be is anyone's guess.

Paukenguy is right in that until that time arrives, you're very much making a choice to be there - in this case, you're largely taking a great orchestra and good pay over a lot of the intangibles that generally make having and holding a job a comfortable experience. Some people are willing to do that. Others are not. The Palau experience is many things. A settled and comfortable experience it is not.

Flaky is right that moving abroad is a huge consideration. "Getting back" isn't always the easiest process. You lose connections in the states, people forget about you, etc. And the audition process is what it is. It's not like you can snap your fingers and make a job appear back home the second you decide you're tired of living abroad.

Flaky is also dead on in his assessment of what people should think about in applying for/taking a gig. I think all of us, when we were students, perhaps thought only about quality of orchestra and size of paycheck. But truth is, for most people the other little things end up mattering just as much, if not more. Is my work environment stable? Do I know what is expected of me? Does the MD/administration appreciate what I contribute? Do I like the city I live in? Is this someplace I want to raise a family? Are there things here that I enjoy doing outside of work?

Even for those who love music passionately, it's still just a small part of what makes up a complete life.

This has been really great, all the information and experiences being posted in this discussion. I have found it all really helpful, from the first-hand details of a current player in Valencia, to the the first-hand experiences of a former player in Valencia, to experiences of other players or former players in other European orchestras. I really think it is all incredibly enlightening. The specifics, the generals, the things I would not have thought to ask, the things that seem insignificant but which prove to be worth considering... I am fascinated by the cultural differences, influences, protocols, in various different countries. Thanks <SO MUCH> for all the amazing responses... and thanks in advance for any further ones as well.

I am especially interested in hearing about experiences of musicians who took jobs overseas and then later felt "stranded" far away from home. If anyone would care to write about their experiences with culture shock, how long it took before the fascination of a new country set in and you wished you were back home, how you went about (or are going about) returning to your home country; i.e. quitting the far-away job cold turkey and landing home to freelance and take auditions, or lining up firm work before making a move, etc... I would find this all really interesteing to hear about. Or also those who moved far away to a new land and who loved it and are happy to spend the rest of their days there, I am fascinated with that as well. The human element of taking a job in another culture - any of it, I would love to hear about. Specifics about certain countries would be wonderful as well.

FYI I am a North American player, age 30's, in high level orchestra; I am considering overseas auditions out of curiousity for life variety. So I am extremely interested to hear from as many players in as many countries as possible :-)

Thank you all so much.

Cecilia, I would be happy to share my thoughts, experiences and opinions with you. If you're interested, just send me a personal message and I'll respond-- so everyone doesn't have to read my bitter diatribe... just kidding. I am an American who took a job over seas just because I needed a job and I have a lot of input/ info on the issues you are curious about.