This thread has spawned some good discussion, so I thought I would weigh in with my $0.02.

On the subject of musician retirement -

While having a mandatory retirement would serve to regularly increase the demand for musicians over the years, we do have to remember that we are talking about people who have dedicated their lives to the the pursuit of music as a career. While the decision to enforce a mandatory retirement age would have to first be approved by the AFM Union, then ratified by the musicians in every local and then agreed upon with the orchestra management and boards, it is something that should be considered as an option, but perhaps not acted upon until information is gathered.

I will keep this in mind as I begin to assemble more data to expand my study. It would be interesting to chart the ages of orchestra musicians and plot that against the hiring numbers over the years.

On Eurobassoon's comment -

The Germany study sounds very interesting and I would love a copy of it, though my German is quite rusty.

As per leaving out some of the variables you mention (unemployed musicians, immigrant musicians, etc), if you look at my notes in Appendix B, I do take admit that I cannot predict these numbers, and thus we should be aware that the labor force is actually greater than what I was able to demostrate. I would love to have access to the number of immigrant musicians, unemployed musicians, and musicians who leave the field to make my study extremly accurate, but at this time this data has not been collected or totally unavailable to me.

Also, you mention the fact that a number of US orchestras do not have a full season. This is very true. But I limited my data collection to the 17 orchestras who operate on a 52-week contract, and then estimated up to the number of ICSOM orchestras. I wish I would have had the time and cooperation of all the ICSOM orchestras to share their data, but I did not. Again, this will be resolved in the future as I take steps to expand and fully complete my study.

Originally posted by flutewoman5:

quote:

...but what about respect for the younger musicians? I mean, there are some really great young musicians that are also decent people and have a good attitude towards the older musicians...but I think ALSO...older musicians have an insecurity to the younger musicians and automatically assume that they are little prodigies w/big egos and this kind of morale does not help the ensemble. It is about making music right?

Yes, Karen, I agree...there are many younger musicians who are winning and holding orchestra positions who make wonderful contributions to the ensembles they are in and do treat their older colleagues with respect. Perhaps it would be better if neither felt it necessary to regard the other with disdain...

I have always been partial to a nice blend of ages within an ensemble. When it harmonizes, it brings a nice balance to the place. Hopefully it can be allowed to continue, the presence of advanced ages in the orchestra. With the recent health developments in our society and people living longer, 65 isn't so "old" anymore, no? Granted, it might take more to maintain the playing skills later on, but I've always thought---if Pablo Casals could do it at 90....and he said he wasn't someone special, just that he advocated keeping up with your practicing. Likewise, if someone is back there fallin down on the job, not doin the work, sure, something's got to give eventually. Why have someone on the payroll if they aren't doing the job? Sometimes evaluations are needed. But, can it be done with a heart? Does it have to be a mandate? Seems so arbitrary that way and that perhaps as musicians or managers, being the creative lot that we are, we can somehow someday come up with a more flexible and sensitive way to address the issue of age differentials and position vacancies than lowering the hatchet at a number.

I just want to thank everyone who has downloaded and read my report over the past month. It means a lot to me to get this information out to the musicians and managers to make them aware of the situation so we can find a solution.

I welcome any questions or comments about my research and can be reach at the e-mail address below.

In 2006 I am making plans to rewrite my study, this time on a 30 year time span and with more accurate data. I look forward to republishing the paper again and helping out the orchestra community.

Brandon-
You might be interested in this NY Times article about Juilliard Grads 10 years later
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/arts/music/12waki.htm...9vkbINMOVhqZdUSIdSHQ
and a blog from an Oberlin grad
http://blog.lib.umn.edu/archives/trail001/shades/012485.html
Based upon the NY Times article - it appears that a lot of BM grads are not in music 10 years later - probably for a lot of reasons. What isn't clear is how the small job market plays into this. Also, were they string players expecting and preparing for a solo career which never materialized? Were no other options acceptable? Was it just not what they thought they were getting into at 18? What could the schools do to better prepare their students for a wide variety of musical careers?

Another interesting aspect of the story was how those still in music were putting together their incomes - teaching, chamber music, ensembles and non-music jobs. Individuals in orchestras that have short seasons or who pay small per session salaries must all have other jobs. How are they actually making a living? How are they paying off student loans? What a gift to a music student to graduate with no loans!!

Phoenix-

I actually quoted that article in my paper, but thank you for the lead.

Your proposition is a good one. How do musicians of today piece together a liveable income out of a small symphony position, a series of chamber music gigs and teaching private lessons? I will keep this in mind as I work to expand my study.