APRIL 2005 SPECIAL REPORT:
"Do's and don'ts for auditioners"
Serving on the orchestra audition committee gives musicians the opportunity to work with the  people managing the auditions, and makes for some very interesting observations. Charles Noble, Assistant Principal Viola with the Oregon Symphony reports.

Read the Report

Dear Charles,

Thanks for your list of do's and dont's, sounds like you had a looong, frustrating week!

I was wondering about two things relating to auditions: one a point of etiquette, and the other relating to something you mentioned in your report.

I know of lots of people who before an audition, (or who are looking for substitute work) will arrange a 'lesson' with the section principal or players in the orchestra. Whilst this makes sense to improve your own playing, to get a feel of the playing style for that orchestra, get to know the prncipal and vice versa; it has always been something i've been reluctant to do as it feels too networky and abusing the back door etc. Do you have any thoughts on this? Is it offensive as a symphony player to be 'used' in this way, or is it a necessary and legitimate thing that generally people don't mind?

The other question was relating to if an audition panel asks you to play something differently: is that always a positive sign in your audition? and if you are behind the screen is it still ok to ask for clarification?

Yours thoughtfully,
Emma

Is Mr. Noble participating in this discussion?

Charles can provide his own answers, of course, but I thought I'd chime in, because Emma's questions are ones I've heard from many, many audition candidates over the years.

I've never thought there was anything wrong with asking the principal, or any member of the section you're auditioning for, to listen to you play in advance of the audition and offer advice. Most musicians I've met agree with me on this, and those who don't usually just politely tell inquirers that they don't give such consultations, so no harm done. It might give you a small advantage in the audition, but hardly an unfair one, since you took the initiative to call and schedule the appointment on your own. Certainly, no self-respecting audition committee member would ever think of giving someone undeserving a job just because s/he had taken a lesson with the principal the week before, so I don't think the practice can be seen as abusing the back door at all. It is true that scheduling such lessons might be easier for musicians who have access to the ICSOM directory, which lists phone numbers of all major orchestra musicians, but even if you don't have that list or know anyone who does, you can usually call the orchestra's main number, and they'll be happy to pass a message to the musician you wish to get in touch with.

The other question is easier. No, it's not always a good sign if you were asked to repeat something. After all, if you'd played it perfectly the first time, they wouldn't need to hear it again. Of course, if you flub something the first time, and fix it on the repeat, or if you successfully change the tempo or style or whatever else was asked for, that does get noticed, and is never a bad thing. But there's really no hard and fast rule about it.

Sam Bergman, viola
chair, Minnesota Orchestra Members' Committee
Minneapolis, MN

Similarly, I have had potential DMA candidates ask me for private lessons to prepare them for the auditions, with the hope that if they do well, I can help get them in as their 'teacher'. However, it doesn't always work that way--if they don't play well enough, the rest of the panel doesn't care who taught them--and certainly, the one or two lessons probably won't make a big enough dent in the playing for the short term. The expectations of those who do arrange lessons with the panel member player/teacher might be too high--and they are often disappointed that the player/teacher didn't push hard enough in their behalf. It could backfire. But we are here to help others, and if it works to their benefit, great. Good playing will survive, no matter whether you are a stranger to the panel or if you have good allies on the jury.

Although I don't have the credentials like Sam or Jeffrey, I have a story that is relevant to this thread.

Many years ago, a close friend of mine in NYC (before I moved West) studied at Juilliard for a number of years in the pre-college division. When time came for him to audition for the upper division, his teacher of four years, who sat on the audition committee rejected him. He obviously thought that he was a shoo-in to get accepted but he was dead wrong.

His teacher later told him that he should have auditioned in the Fall and not the Spring, since there were less musicians auditioning and it would have increased his chances. But, the teacher failed to mention this during the Fall semester.

He also said that prior to his first audition, he told his teacher that he wasn't going to continue studying with him if he got into the upper division because he felt four years was enough with one teacher. That didn't help his case which is probably why his old teacher might have been put off on accepting him. If he was going to continue with him, he probably would have gotten in, or so he says.

So, he did what any other Juilliard reject would do, he went to the Manhattan School of Music and for the next two years, he auditioned again and again only to get rejected each time. It was only his third try that he got accepted. Why? He had studied with everyone on that Juilliard audition committee either privately or at Manhattan School of Music (dual teaching jobs I guess). And, his old teacher wasn't on the last audition committee.

So on one end, his old teacher was the one who probably prevented him from being accepted and on the other end, he eventually was accepted because he had studied with everyone on the audition committee.

Ain't nepotism grand?

Rob,

If he auditioned three times, does that mean he only went to Juilliard his fourth year only?

So what's the Juilliard grad doing today?

quote:

.
The other question is easier. No, it's not always a good sign if you were asked to repeat something. After all, if you'd played it perfectly the first time, they wouldn't need to hear it again. Of course, if you flub something the first time, and fix it on the repeat, or if you successfully change the tempo or style or whatever else was asked for, that does get noticed, and is never a bad thing. But there's really no hard and fast rule about it.

Sam Bergman, viola
chair, Minnesota Orchestra Members' Committee
Minneapolis, MN

Throw into the mix the occasional problem of "outside factors". I remember talking to a Personnel Manager in an ICSOM orchestra a few weeks ago who was telling me about an audition they recently conducted where they had to use a facility other than their rehearsal location. As it turns out there was a construction project going on next door and during one candidate's audition the workers kept making some excessive noise with a power saw jsut as she was starting one of her excerpts. The committee had to apparently ask the candidate to play the excerpt three times because the saw noise was so bad.

After the third time the candidate allegedly burst into tears and just left. Not a fun afternoon for anyone involved. The PM learned an important lesson that day: even though the location for your audition may be acceptable, it pays to find out what's going on next door before securing the dates.

Some good advice I remember receiving once from a teacher was don't read into anything at an audition, just do what they tell you to do when they tell you to do it.

Best,
Drew

Aimee, he auditioned in that fall, in the spring of the following year and fall again before he got in so it was only really a year. Juilliard auditions twice a year.

Today, he is a school teacher but pretty darn proud of having attended Juilliard.

quote:

Originally posted by Violist:
Dear Charles,

Thanks for your list of do's and dont's, sounds like you had a looong, frustrating week!

I was wondering about two things relating to auditions: one a point of etiquette, and the other relating to something you mentioned in your report.

I know of lots of people who before an audition, (or who are looking for substitute work) will arrange a 'lesson' with the section principal or players in the orchestra. Whilst this makes sense to improve your own playing, to get a feel of the playing style for that orchestra, get to know the prncipal and vice versa; it has always been something i've been reluctant to do as it feels too networky and abusing the back door etc. Do you have any thoughts on this? Is it offensive as a symphony player to be 'used' in this way, or is it a necessary and legitimate thing that generally people don't mind?

The other question was relating to if an audition panel asks you to play something differently: is that always a positive sign in your audition? and if you are behind the screen is it still ok to ask for clarification?

Yours thoughtfully,
Emma

Sorry for the long wait! I've been off doing other things, life just got in the way...

First: Lessons w/ the principal players. It's often done, and I think that some principals in the big orchestras pay for their lakefront properties with the windfall from these lessons! It's a good thing to do, just to get an idea of the principal's sensibilities: for example, Roberto Diaz, who I studied with for four years, advocated using practical fingerings that didn't get in the way of a successful execution, then moving on to some more expressive options. Evan Wilson, of the LA Phil, definitely prefers things done exactly his way, and tends to emphasize going up on the lower strings for a more intense sound. I wouldn't schedule a lesson two days before the audition, especially if their approach is drastically different from yours and might throw you off your game. In the end, I don't think it's often worth the money and time, unless you just want to get a lesson from a great player, and file away impressions for a future audition. In Oregon, we've hired players that don't sound like any of those of us in the section, but those that we hired played very, very well, and showed a degree of flexibility when asked to play excerpts in a different manner (especially w/ Maestro Kalmar in the finals).

Second: Generally, if you're asked to play something again, it's good news/bad news: good news because there was something that has piqued the interest of the committee, bad news because there may be a technical issue that's bothering them and which they want to either have confirmed or allayed. Lots of times this happens with the Midsummer Night's Dream Scherzo, in the matter of how "picky" the spiccato is. If it doesn't sound really off the string, we'll ask for it again to confirm that there isn't any funny business, and that the candidate does indeed have a good spiccato stroke. In the end - it's more good news than bad - the committee generally doesn't have time to waste with someone who has already eliminated themself, if they're asking you to do something again, they're interested in you.

In any audition situation, if you are not sure what is expected of you, ALWAYS ask the committee for clarification (by whispering your question(s) to the personnel manager, of course).

Thanks for your questions, and best of luck!

Charles

quote:

Originally posted by Sam Bergman:
Charles can provide his own answers, of course, but I thought I'd chime in, because Emma's questions are ones I've heard from many, many audition candidates over the years.

I've never thought there was anything wrong with asking the principal, or any member of the section you're auditioning for, to listen to you play in advance of the audition and offer advice. Most musicians I've met agree with me on this, and those who don't usually just politely tell inquirers that they don't give such consultations, so no harm done. It might give you a small advantage in the audition, but hardly an unfair one, since you took the initiative to call and schedule the appointment on your own. Certainly, no self-respecting audition committee member would ever think of giving someone undeserving a job just because s/he had taken a lesson with the principal the week before, so I don't think the practice can be seen as abusing the back door at all. It is true that scheduling such lessons might be easier for musicians who have access to the ICSOM directory, which lists phone numbers of all major orchestra musicians, but even if you don't have that list or know anyone who does, you can usually call the orchestra's main number, and they'll be happy to pass a message to the musician you wish to get in touch with.

The other question is easier. No, it's not always a good sign if you were asked to repeat something. After all, if you'd played it perfectly the first time, they wouldn't need to hear it again. Of course, if you flub something the first time, and fix it on the repeat, or if you successfully change the tempo or style or whatever else was asked for, that does get noticed, and is never a bad thing. But there's really no hard and fast rule about it.

Sam Bergman, viola
chair, Minnesota Orchestra Members' Committee
Minneapolis, MN

On the other hand, I have heard of people NOT taking specific orchestra auditions because of just that......there are some places that are known for hiring only those which have studied with them or went to their own local conservatory/school. I'm sure they're not all like that, but there are some.